Breakdown In Civil Order

[Politesse]

California must be saving a fortune with all these empty jails.

The State of California detains around 93,000 people at an annual operating cost of ~14.5 billion dollars. We house a similar number of federal prisoners, supposedly not at our expense, though they certainly become our problem when released.

 

[Gospel]

Hope this helps;

So, is it safe to assume that if executed correctly, you would support that approach?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Hope this helps;

California has not been tracking its spending on addressing the state’s homelessness crisis or the results of its programs, a state audit revealed this week. The report, which took over a year to complete and was requested by a bipartisan group of lawmakers, sought to account for the $24 billion California has spent on its fight against homelessness. “Not only did the audit struggle to measure the effectiveness of programs that we’re spending money on, in most cases, we don’t have enough information to even measure the outcomes of programs and where the dollars are going,” Assemblyman Josh Hoover, of Folsom, said. California spends more on homelessness each year, but the number of people on the street continues to climb as many as 181,399 as of 2023.

News

The article isn't particular good. The Audit provides a better feel.

Two of the Five State‑Funded Programs We Reviewed Are Likely Cost‑Effective, but the State Lacks Outcome Data for the Remaining Three

When we selected five of the State’s homelessness programs to review, we found that two were likely cost‑effective: Homekey and the CalWORKs Housing Support Program (housing support program). Specifically, Homekey refurbishes existing buildings to provide housing units to individuals experiencing homelessness for hundreds of thousands of dollars less than the cost of newly built units. Similarly, the Housing Support Program’s provision of financial support to families who were at risk of or experiencing homelessness has cost the State less than it would have spent had these families remained or become homeless. However, we were unable to fully assess the other three programs we reviewed—the State Rental Assistance Program, the Encampment Resolution Funding Program, and the Homeless Housing, Assistance and prevention grant program—because the State has not collected sufficient data on the programs’ outcomes. In the absence of this information, the State cannot determine whether these programs represent the best use of its funds.

Sounds like they need a lot better tracking and data, however, what has not been determined is whether the spending has helped in the other three programs or that they are ineffective. Spending that much money, probably be nice to have some tracking. Whether this is difficult based on the types of services provided, I can't tell. Homelessness increases as cost of housing has increased. California has failed so thoroughly, that the cost of housing there is through the roof, like all economically disadvantaged places.

 

[Jarhyn]

Wait are we seriously asking about homeless folks in California being violent when we have folks in Texas casually shooting people from their car windows and being given a pass for it? I mean shit, at least the guy in Cali got arrested and will go to jail in the first place...

 

[TSwizzle]

You don't need the audit, just drive around Los Angeles, you notice things are getting worse, not better.

 

[TSwizzle]

So, is it safe to assume that if executed correctly, you would support that approach?

Sure, and if we pay more taxes the climate will stop changing.

 

[Emily Lake]

California must be saving a fortune with all these empty jails.

The State of California detains around 93,000 people at an annual operating cost of ~14.5 billion dollars. We house a similar number of federal prisoners, supposedly not at our expense, though they certainly become our problem when released.

Unless my math is way off... that's $155,000 per person annually. That's more than double the median income. That seems like an excessive amount to spend.

Personal opinion: prisons shouldn't be private entities. There should be no profit motive in incarceration.

 

[bilby]

California must be saving a fortune with all these empty jails.

The State of California detains around 93,000 people at an annual operating cost of ~14.5 billion dollars. We house a similar number of federal prisoners, supposedly not at our expense, though they certainly become our problem when released.

Unless my math is way off... that's $155,000 per person annually. That's more than double the median income. That seems like an excessive amount to spend.

When you consider how many staff need to be employed in a prison (many of them on a 24x7 basis, so you need three or four people for each position to cover shifts and absences), that doesn't seem excessive or surprising to me.

You can only increase the prisoner:guard ratio so much, before you lose control of the prison, and people start to escape from it.

Personal opinion: prisons shouldn't be private entities. There should be no profit motive in incarceration.

Agree 100%.

 

[Swammerdami]

California must be saving a fortune with all these empty jails.

The State of California detains around 93,000 people at an annual operating cost of ~14.5 billion dollars. We house a similar number of federal prisoners, supposedly not at our expense, though they certainly become our problem when released.

I've been aware of high U.S. incarceration rates for decades (and indeed have been incarcerated myself), but Googled anyway. Crossing out tiny islands and such, the five countries with highest incarceration seem to be: (All numbers are per 100,000.)

#1 United States (716), #2 Cuba (510), #3 Rwanda (492), #4 Belize (476), #5 Russian Federation (475)

Wikipedia has its own list with different numbers and caveats; I use it exclusively in the sequel. Yes, I understand Wikipedia's content is often flawed. (It also shows Cuba and Rwanda as #2 and #3, but U.S. is #5, and Russia at #15, among major countries.)

The following selections from Wiki's long list of countries are not "cherry-picked," but are intended to give a brief look at incarceration rates, with particular aim to compare U.S. states with foreign countries.
Note that ALL of the Top Ten highest-incarceration-rate major countries are shown. (Thailand is #10.) Five of these Top Ten have incarceration rates lower than California. U.S. itself is #5, surpassed by #4 Turkmenistan, #3 Rwanda, #2 Cuba, #1 El Salvador.

Japan (33), India (40), Finland (51), Germany (67), Canada (85), France (107), China (119), Portugal (122), Puerto Rico (221), South Africa (250), Massachusetts (250), Minnesota (280), Russia (300), Thailand (377), Connecticut (380), Brazil (389), Turkey (392), Uruguay (408), Maryland (460), Panama (499), California (510), U.S. average (531), Turkmenistan (576), Ohio (600), Rwanda (621), Florida (700), Texas (750), Cuba (794), Louisiana (980), El Salvador (1086).

BOTH country rates and state rates are taken from Wikipedia, BUT there is a mix-up on U.S., appearing at 580 on states' list but 531 on countries' list I guess this means I should subtract 8.5% from states' figures above, but have not done so,

 

[Emily Lake]

California must be saving a fortune with all these empty jails.

The State of California detains around 93,000 people at an annual operating cost of ~14.5 billion dollars. We house a similar number of federal prisoners, supposedly not at our expense, though they certainly become our problem when released.

Unless my math is way off... that's $155,000 per person annually. That's more than double the median income. That seems like an excessive amount to spend.

When you consider how many staff need to be employed in a prison (many of them on a 24x7 basis, so you need three or four people for each position to cover shifts and absences), that doesn't seem excessive or surprising to me.

You can only increase the prisoner:guard ratio so much, before you lose control of the prison, and people start to escape from it.

Maybe. I'll have to cogitate a bit more. I mean, the inmates don't get an income, so that cost is being spread over prison staff, facility costs, and consumables right? I could see a really high investment cost for initial construction of the prison, but for OpEx it seems high. I mean, I'd like to see us spending even half that that much per head on children's education!

Personal opinion: prisons shouldn't be private entities. There should be no profit motive in incarceration.

Agree 100%.

 

[Politesse]

The numbers aren't too surprising when you realize how common these pro-carceral attitudes are. While not all Americans believe in throwing every vagrant or shoplifter or alleyway urinator into the Chateau d'If and forgetting about them, plenty do. Our country wasn't founded by such principles, but it sure was populated by them. Our colonists weren't major criminals, those got executed. We were all petty thieves, vandalists, adulterers, and especially loan defaulters, taught intergenerationally that crime is caused by a fundamentally defective character, and that criminals can thus never truly be reformed, only quarantined. Europe moved on to a more humane model eventually, but our nation of criminals and debt slaves got stuck partway, and just can't quite get past the idea that mass incarceration will make everyone safer somehow. It's baked into the reform Protestant mindset like cheese to an ungreased oven tray.

One of the most common genres of American humor is the "prison rape joke" or "Bubba joke". If you doubt it, talk to a group of American men about the prison system for a while and wait for one to pop up. Young men getting raped after their freedom has already been taken from them for a mistake is tier 1 US Boomer Humor.

 

[ZiprHead]

You don't need the audit, just drive around Los Angeles, you notice things are getting worse, not better.

There seems to be plenty of cops to harass campus protesters.

 

[robnisch]

Seattle area seems be having a lot problems lately. Be it liberal government or lacks courts, I don't know, but it is a tough place to live and commute to. A lot of road rage of late.

 

[TSwizzle]

While California burns, insufferable prick Gavin Newsom is in Rome (he may have returned today) meeting with the Pope to discuss the weather. What the actual fuck?

I can’t wait for this clown to run for president.

 

[Jarhyn]

Seattle area seems be having a lot problems lately. Be it liberal government or lacks courts, I don't know, but it is a tough place to live and commute to. A lot of road rage of late.

I mean, this might have a lot to do with the recent surge in populist nationalism and the entitlement of conservatives.

I blame the conservatives for throwing tantrums and the permission granted to such activities by such brazen moves as pardoning a casual murder because the person who got murdered had views the governor didn't like.

They are the assholes who inserts a stick into their own bike spokes and then tries to use the same stick to beat the first person that arrives to help because "look at what you made me do", and then uses this as a crusade against the safety of bikes because they hate that occasionally, they're stuck behind a bicycle.