Questions about Paganism and Wicca?

[espritch]

I've noticed a couple of people on this board say they are Pagans or Wiccans. I have a few questions.

What exactly do Pagans believe? What do Wiccans believe? Are they similar belief systems or different?

What are the origins of these belief systems. I assume that modern Wicca and Paganism are really rather modern inventions since the ancient belief systems they claim ties to were pretty well wiped out by the Christian church centuries ago.

I know some Wiccans like to talk about the witch trials of earlier centuries as persecution of Wiccans but I tend to think most of these victims were not Wiccans but just Christians unlucky enough to run afoul of religion gone mad.

Also, what is a Nordic Pagan? Is that someone who believes in the old Nordic gods (Thor, Odin, etc.). Is this different form "conventional Paganism?"

Any thoughts are welcome, although I would especially like to hear from those who actually claim to be Wiccans or Pagans (straight from the horse's mouth as it were).

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Hello espritch,

Oh dear, what a time to be asking this question-when our most lucid and empathic Pagan is in the process of leaving!

(I mean brighid btw-look up some of her posts, why don't you?)

I'm a Secular Pagan, which means I'm an atheist who also practises a lifestyle of honouring the earth. OK, there's a bit more to it than that, but that'll do for the moment.

I was Wiccan however-for about 14 years, so I can give you some of the background there.

Basically, Wicca is a modern religion, conceived almost out of whole cloth by Gerald Gardner around 50-60 years ago, perhaps in answer to some crypto masochistic sexual proclivities he laboured under, in company with a good half of his national peers.

It took off like wildfire, so to speak, and has laid claim to be the fastest-growing religionn in the world today, a claim of dubious genesis.

Wicca recognises deity to be male and female, seperate entities, under whose influence the seasons turn, the species propogate, and the fields yeild up their wares.

There are 8 main Sabbats in the religion, 4 of them corresponding to the astronomical equinoxes and solstices, and the other 4 concerned with approximate starts of agricultural seasons.

The elements of eart, water, air and fire are acknowledged as holding sway over all matter, together with the fifth element of spirit, or akasha.

A Wiccan will work as a solitary, and may choose a tradition within which to operate, or may be part of a coven, which in turn is usually afilliated to one of the Traditions-for example, Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Georgian, Feri, Celtic.
Wicca , given its roots, is a mostly eurocentric religion, although variants are appearing with less owed to its origins.

You'll find Wicca to be among the more hierarchically-structured forms of Paganism, often boasting clergy, which normally means a High Priestess, and sometimes a HIgh Priest as well.The focus on female spirituality is one of the few redeeming features of this religion, and is perhaps what helps it attract new followers.

Paganism is the term which encompasses several religions which have in common a spirituality which features reverence for the earth prominently.
A Wiccan is necessarily a Pagan, but a Pagan is not always a Wiccan.

Paganism, or Neo-Paganism if we're discussing the more recent variant,includes such subsets as Druidism, Asatru(there's one of the Norse religions you mentioned-although I believe they prefer to be called Heathens), Native American Shamanism, and recently in my own country, a co-opted form of Native Paganism called rather whimsically 'African Spiritualism', which tries to meld the Traditional Healing practises of the iSangoma and isInyanga with the seaon-and-earth-honouring European traditions of Paganism.With what success, we have still to experience.(But it's a good try).

Oh hell, I've rambled on a bit here, and I'm not sure how clear I've made this-perhaps some more concise poster will come and help straighten us both out!
Ciao for now,

Terri

Pagani

[Heathen Dawn]

I've noticed a couple of people on this board say they are Pagans or Wiccans.

Yes. :)

What exactly do Pagans believe?

There are so many pagan paths that it’s impossible to give a general answer. I tried to find a common denominator as earth-worship or polytheism or both of those, but it doesn’t work (there are pagans who fit neither bill, and there are non-pagan polytheists such as the Mormons).

What do Wiccans believe?

The traditional Wiccan beliefs are:


Divinity is divided into male and female: one Goddess and one God
Changes in nature can be worked by the power of one’s mind and ritual actions—magic and spellcraft
Humans undergo an endless series of reincarnation into other humans


I said “traditional.” Eclectic Wiccans often modify the standard tenets of Wicca as they feel right. I’m an eclectic Wiccan.

What are the origins of these belief systems. I assume that modern Wicca and Paganism are really rather modern inventions since the ancient belief systems they claim ties to were pretty well wiped out by the Christian church centuries ago.

Wicca dates from the late 1940s, beginning with the work of Gerald Gardner, a British civil servant. Other branches of neopaganism have various dates in the 20th century, such as Ásatrú (Norse paganism) from the 1970s.

I know some Wiccans like to talk about the witch trials of earlier centuries as persecution of Wiccans but I tend to think most of these victims were not Wiccans but just Christians unlucky enough to run afoul of religion gone mad.

That is correct, they were not Wiccans, as Wicca is only about 50 years old. The Burning Times canard used to be fashionable among Wiccans who wanted to have a victim complex, but is now being recognised for the fallacy it is.

Also, what is a Nordic Pagan? Is that someone who believes in the old Nordic gods (Thor, Odin, etc.). Is this different form "conventional Paganism?"

Nordic or Norse Paganism, also known as Ásatrú, is a reconstructionist pagan religion aiming for the revival of the ancient way of worshipping the Norse Gods (including Thor and Odin). Reconstructionist paganism is totally different from Wicca and includes many branches, such as: Ásatrú (Nordic), Hellenismos (Greek), Religio Romana (Roman), Neocelts (Celtic) and Kemeticism (Egyptian).

Any thoughts are welcome, although I would especially like to hear from those who actually claim to be Wiccans or Pagans (straight from the horse's mouth as it were).

I’m a Wiccan-in-training, recently begun studies in a coven.

[Heathen Dawn]

Oh, and by the way: this thread belongs in the Non-Abrahamic forum.

[espritch]

Thanks for the responses.

Aquila ka Hecate:
I'm a Secular Pagan, which means I'm an atheist who also practices a lifestyle of honoring the earth. OK, there's a bit more to it than that, but that'll do for the moment.

I didn't know you could be an atheist and a Pagan. I aways assumed that Paganism implied a kind of theistic outlook, just with different gods. From your description, it sounds like Paganism is a kind of roll your own approach to spirituality with it's most obvious common denominator being a rejection of Abrahamaic style religion.

I'm curious as to what reverence for the Earth entails. Is the a Gaea kind of thing where the Earth is assumed to have a kind of living spirit, or is it more just a matter of respect for something truly amazing and important to our survival?

Heathen Dawn:
The traditional Wiccan beliefs are:

Divinity is divided into male and female: one Goddess and one God
Changes in nature can be worked by the power of one’s mind and ritual actions—magic and spellcraft
Humans undergo an endless series of reincarnation into other humans


The first and last of those would be hard to prove or disprove. But it seems to me that the second one implies the ability to create observable effects on the real world. And such effects could be tested. So, have you ever seen any evidence that spells actually work? Do you think a spell could be demonstrated in a properly controlled double blind test? And if not, would that effect your view of Wicca?

I’m a Wiccan-in-training, recently begun studies in a coven.

Does that mean you are training to cast spells? Or is there more to it?

Oh, and by the way: this thread belongs in the Non-Abrahamic forum.

I thought about that, but since this was mainly just a general exploration of what Wicca and Paganism are about, it seemed to me that General Religious Discussion was the appropriate place for it. However, if the mods think it ought to be moved, I have no objection.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

I didn't know you could be an atheist and a Pagan. I aways assumed that Paganism implied a kind of theistic outlook, just with different gods. From your description, it sounds like Paganism is a kind of roll your own approach to spirituality with it's most obvious common denominator being a rejection of Abrahamaic style religion.

I belive that it's getting that way-Secular Paganism is a growing movement, for all of us
a) Pissed off with religion
and/or
b)Unable to mantain the theistic stance.


I'm curious as to what reverence for the Earth entails. Is the a Gaea kind of thing where the Earth is assumed to have a kind of living spirit, or is it more just a matter of respect for something truly amazing and important to our survival?
For me, it's certainly the latter-I will refer to the earth as my Mother, and it's literally true in some ways, and helps keep me focused, but the reality is that I recognize the importance of our only (for now) home, and the need to keep 'her' healthy-yes, it's a survival thing, when you reduce it I guess.

I'm interested to see how HD answers his bit-I think we're going to have a bit of an argument as to the objectivity of 'magick' here!

As you can see, Pagans have a huge diversity of opinions on their own description.

(Howzit, Heathen Dawn :cool: )

Regards,

Terri

[The AntiChris]

I will refer to the earth as my Mother, and it's literally true in some ways,
Don't be silly! :D

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Howzit AntiChris,

I'm in a fair way to being a specialist in silly.

After all, I was a practising Wiccan for many years.They don't come much sillier.

Regards
Terri

[Heathen Dawn]

The first and last of those would be hard to prove or disprove. But it seems to me that the second one implies the ability to create observable effects on the real world. And such effects could be tested. So, have you ever seen any evidence that spells actually work? Do you think a spell could be demonstrated in a properly controlled double blind test? And if not, would that effect your view of Wicca?

Well, if it isn’t just like you metaphysical naturalists. Everything, yeah everything, has to be empirically verified, put under the test tube. Science is your god.

Now, as to the question whether I have seen any evidence that spells actually work, my answer is currently no, because I’ve neither cast any spell yet nor seen anyone else do it. And as for controlled tests, I don’t think they’d pass Randi’s Paranormal Challenge; then again, I don’t have a high opinion of Randi’s challenge anyway.

But, as I say in the answer to the next question:

Does that mean you are training to cast spells? Or is there more to it?

There is much more to Wicca than casting spells. In fact spells are a minor part of the Craft, which is a religion, and some Wiccans don’t cast spells at all. Myself, I don’t intend to go casting spells except for very special occasions. My primary focus is the worship of the Goddess and the God. The heart of Wicca (this is the title of an important book by Ellen Cannon Reed) is the service of the Gods and the initiation into the Divine Mysteries. In the coven sessions I learn various things: I started with the elements (Fire, Air, Water, Earth), learned how to cast a circle, visualisation, raising energy, getting into a trance, and then I’m going to learn about the Goddess and the God and the role of male-female polarity, and somewhere along the line there’s the stuff about spellwork. But spellcraft is only one thing among many in Wicca, and not the most important of those.

I belive that it's getting that way-Secular Paganism is a growing movement, for all of us
a) Pissed off with religion
and/or
b)Unable to mantain the theistic stance.

Secular Paganism is a cool path—nature-based spirituality for metaphysical naturalists. It’s based on naturalistic pantheism (http://members.aol.com/Heraklit1/) and has its name from a woman who called herself Secular Pagan (her website, Secular Spirituality, is now in archive (http://www.archive.org)). I’ve gone the reverse path of Aquila (from secular paganism to religious, theistic Wicca) because I got pissed off with atheism.

(Howzit, Heathen Dawn :cool: )

All OK, Aquila. :) I’m happy with the training, I’ve got my subjective religious experience (IOW, the Goddess and the God talked to me, a few weeks ago) and I feel like I’m growing with each coven session I attend. Non, je ne regrette rien! :D

[tangiellis]

This post is better suited for Non-Abrahamic Religion & Philosophy. Off you go.

Tangie

[Infidelettante]

Hello espritch, I think Tangie was right to move this thread to NAR&P and we’re glad to have you here.

Heathen Dawn and Aquila Hecate have explained some Pagan thought very well. I am also both a Pagan and an Atheist. I try to focus more on the ritual aspect of Paganism than the magical. That is not to say I don’t practice magic, I do. I just think the word magic more rightly reveals what happens during a ritual. Something magical happens when everything comes together.

Magical and rather difficult to explain. I think it is difficult to explain and to understand because ritual and magic don’t work by cause and effect. I think they work by pattern, meaning and form. We moderns expect we can explain and understand everything. We can’t, and beyond that there are things that are best grasped without understanding. I think magic is one of those things.

I haven't found a group I would be comfortable working with so I am solitary. I’m a little jealous of you who work in covens. This is the reason I stopped calling myself Wiccan. I think Wicca is about community. Maybe I can break down some of my resistance to adapting my thinking to working with a group. How do you do that?


JT

[espritch]

Aquila ka Hecate:
For me, it's certainly the latter-I will refer to the earth as my Mother, and it's literally true in some ways, and helps keep me focused, but the reality is that I recognize the importance of our only (for now) home, and the need to keep 'her' healthy-yes, it's a survival thing, when you reduce it I guess.

You don't believe in gods. Your version of reverence for the earth doesn't seem to differ much from mine. So what, exactly is it that makes you a Pagan rather than simply a rationalist?

Heathen Dawn:
Well, if it isn’t just like you metaphysical naturalists. Everything, yeah everything, has to be empirically verified, put under the test tube. Science is your god.

I won't deny being a naturalist. I much prefer evidence to faith. I don't, however, view science as a god. It is a useful tool for sorting the real from the unreal, for understanding the mechanisms that drive the world around me, for getting at the truth of things. Getting at the truth is what matters.

Heathen Dawn:
Now, as to the question whether I have seen any evidence that spells actually work, my answer is currently no, because I’ve neither cast any spell yet nor seen anyone else do it.

I'll give you credit for an honest answer, but I find it puzzling. If science were my god, I could honestly say that I had personally witnessed a great many of it's "miracles". Heck, I'm using one of them to type this message right now. :) You've never actually seen a spell cast, yet you seem to believe in them. Why?

Heathen Dawn:
And as for controlled tests, I don’t think they’d pass Randi’s Paranormal Challenge; then again, I don’t have a high opinion of Randi’s challenge anyway.

<Darth Vader Voice>I find your lack of faith disturbing.</Darth Vader Voice>

But seriously, what is it about Randi's test that leads you to have a low opinion of it? Do you think he cheats?

Heathen Dawn:
My primary focus is the worship of the Goddess and the God.

Again I have to wonder why. Why would a God or a Goddess require or even want worship? What do you get out of giving it to them?

Infidelettante:
I try to focus more on the ritual aspect of Paganism than the magical. That is not to say I don’t practice magic, I do. I just think the word magic more rightly reveals what happens during a ritual. Something magical happens when everything comes together.

This sounds a lot like the subjective experience of "oneness with the universe" that Zen meditation practitioners report experiencing. Zen meditation, is after all, a rather ritualistic activity. Whether you see this as magical would depend a lot on whether you view it as having actually achieved some higher state of consciousness or whether you see it as just inducing an interesting physiological state.

Infidelettante:
We moderns expect we can explain and understand everything. We can’t, and beyond that there are things that are best grasped without understanding. I think magic is one of those things.

I don't personally expect that I can explain and understand everything. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't try. I think that the more we understand about the world, the better off we are. I certainly wouldn't want to trade places with one of those ancients cowering around their camp fires in superstitious dread of the spirit haunted night.

[Heathen Dawn]

I haven't found a group I would be comfortable working with so I am solitary. I’m a little jealous of you who work in covens. This is the reason I stopped calling myself Wiccan.

Er, doesn’t that make you a Solitary Wiccan? Why give up the Wiccan title just because you aren’t in a coven?

I think Wicca is about community. Maybe I can break down some of my resistance to adapting my thinking to working with a group. How do you do that?

The main reason I prefer coven to solitary work is that I don’t grow enough as a solitary. Working in a community pushes me to advance far more greatly than as a solitary. In fact the Goddess and the God didn’t speak to me until I started the coven work. If that isn’t a sign that coven work is for me, then I don’t know what is.

[Heathen Dawn]

I won't deny being a naturalist. I much prefer evidence to faith. I don't, however, view science as a god. It is a useful tool for sorting the real from the unreal, for understanding the mechanisms that drive the world around me, for getting at the truth of things. Getting at the truth is what matters.

It’s a useful tool for learning the truth about the natural universe, but its usefulness is limited when the answer is a supernatural one. In fact, I’m having a debate right now (in the “Prove God doesn’t exist” thread on EoG) on the merits of methodological naturalism in finding out the truth.

You've never actually seen a spell cast, yet you seem to believe in them. Why?

I’ve had religious experiences that lead me to trust in the efficacy of the Wiccan way.

But seriously, what is it about Randi's test that leads you to have a low opinion of it? Do you think he cheats?

I don’t think he cheats, but I do think he rigs, he constrains, he is far too stringent. I think the standards he sets up for proving the paranormal are akin to the standards young-earth creationist organisations set up for proving evolution. I intend to write an article in the future comparing sceptics of the paranormal with young-earth creationists.

Why would a God or a Goddess require or even want worship?

Actually They don’t, They’re not glory-hungry like the Judæo-Christian God (Yahweh). But I worship Them because They are deserving of worship, because I love Them.

What do you get out of giving it to them?

Revelation from Them, Their speaking to me, learning of Their Mysteries.

[Yeshi]

So if tibetan buddhists do practices which include:

° White Mother Tara (Druid goddess of old) for protection/improvement
° Bön (shamanic) techniques of dream control

Are they then pagan as well?

[Heathen Dawn]

If it formed the core of their religious life and not just a peripheral accretion, then yes, I think that would make them pagan.

[Infidelettante]

The main reason I prefer coven to solitary work is that I don’t grow enough as a solitary. Working in a community pushes me to advance far more greatly than as a solitary. In fact the Goddess and the God didn’t speak to me until I started the coven work. If that isn’t a sign that coven work is for me, then I don’t know what is.

I do think I may have gone just about as far as I can with my study of ritual by myself. I think I would greatly benefit from coven working. It is an unwillingness to allow anyone into my system or to allow myself to change it that keeps me solitary.

So in some sense I am denying one of my most basic beliefs, that what works is true. Covening works for you and you have the truth of that relationship. I, on the other hand, find that being a Solitary does not work for me so I am in an untrue or false condition.

Well...I have some work to do. Mind if we keep this going while I try to work through things? This exchange may result in a major new direction for me.

JT

[Heathen Dawn]

It is an unwillingness to allow anyone into my system or to allow myself to change it that keeps me solitary.

Oh, how well I know this. It’s a very common phenomenon, this inhibition. It even has a formal name among pagans: the Dweller on the Threshold.

Covening works for you and you have the truth of that relationship. I, on the other hand, find that being a Solitary does not work for me so I am in an untrue or false condition.

So, what I did, after a few months of stagnation, was give that Dweller a forceful kick and dive into the coven heads first. I have no regrets about doing so. :D

Well...I have some work to do. Mind if we keep this going while I try to work through things? This exchange may result in a major new direction for me.

All good, I wish you the best of luck, and may the Gods steer you on the most suitable path. :)

[Infidelettante]

quote espritch

I try to focus more on the ritual aspect of Paganism than the magical. That is not to say I don’t practice magic, I do. I just think the word magic more rightly reveals what happens during a ritual. Something magical happens when everything comes together.

This sounds a lot like the subjective experience of "oneness with the universe" that Zen meditation practitioners report experiencing. Zen meditation, is after all, a rather ritualistic activity. Whether you see this as magical would depend a lot on whether you view it as having actually achieved some higher state of consciousness or whether you see it as just inducing an interesting physiological state.

And the purpose or goal of ritual is to achieve that state of consciousness which allows complete attention to the realization of desire. This is, I think, the one great gap that separates Neo-paganism and Buddhism. In my understanding Buddhism seeks to dampen the desires and so reduce suffering. My practice encourages just the opposite. We should hold tight to our desires. We must explore them and discover their origin. And, if their realization would do no harm, we are free to take whatever steps required to fulfill our desire. And that includes the practice of magic.


quote espritch

We moderns expect we can explain and understand everything. We can’t, and beyond that there are things that are best grasped without understanding. I think magic is one of those things.

I don't personally expect that I can explain and understand everything. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't try. I think that the more we understand about the world, the better off we are. I certainly wouldn't want to trade places with one of those ancients cowering around their camp fires in superstitious dread of the spirit haunted night.

I think you miss my point. It is not that we will never understand or explain everything, we won’t. It is that there are things which do not work in the way our modern minds think they should. One of those things is magic. Above I said the purpose of ritual is to achieve that state of consciousness which allows complete attention to the realization of desire.

What I do not say is that it is a higher consciousness. In fact it is a former consciousness. A valid, useful, but lower consciousness. It is a consciousness which does not differentiate symbol and object, image and entity, whole and part, class and member and so to it all is magically one. It is this consciousness to which the ritualist returns in the practice of magic. Ken Wilber, in Up from Eden, a transpersonal view of human evolution says of this consciousness :

It is not so much that magic is a hallucinatory or primitive misperception of an otherwise clear and distinct reality, rather that magic is a more or less correct perception of a primitive and lower level of reality. It is not a distorted perception of a higher reality, but a correct perception of a lower reality.

Wilber places the evolution of human consciousness into four stages of development: The archaic-uroboric, the magical-typhonic, the mythic-membership, and the mental-egoic. Each of these levels of development in turn is subsumed into the succeeding level. When we arrive at our present stage of consciousness, the mental-egoic, each of the three previous levels exists still within our consciousness. Not only does it still exist but it is functional and accessible. The trick is how we access it and how we make it function.

Ritual serves to access the lower levels of consciousness and employ their functionality. Outside of their use in ritual the lower levels can manifest as pathology, neurosis. Ritual permits the present level of consciousness to control the former, lower levels and direct them to a positive out come. In the context of this discussion the mental-egoic consciousness has created the form of ritual in order to gain access to and control of the magical-typhonic consciousness.

It is this process of access and control that we understand as ritual. The working of magic, which is the working of the magical-typhonic level is, I think, beyond our ability to truly understand. To control it is not necessarily to understand it. To move into magical consciousness is to withdraw from the present consiousness and become vulnerable to mental and psychic illness. It is the purpose of ritual to provide a way to safely move between states of consciousness. It is the purpose of ritual to allow us to descend into madness and return all the wiser for having made the journey.


JT

[Protoctista]

I'm curious as to what reverence for the Earth entails. Is the a Gaea kind of thing where the Earth is assumed to have a kind of living spirit, or is it more just a matter of respect for something truly amazing and important to our survival?

I'm even more curious as to why, if such an entity as "Mother Nature" exists, people would want to worship her, given that she has probably killed, maimed and tortured more people than any human villain.

[Heathen Dawn]

I'm even more curious as to why, if such an entity as "Mother Nature" exists, people would want to worship her, given that she has probably killed, maimed and tortured more people than any human villain.

Let’s see, I don’t want to be condescending, nor do I want to break any board rules. What am I going to say?

OK, I’ll say this: it’s a matter of unconditional love. The Earth Goddess is worthy of worship because She is the Mother of all life, even if She does not show favour to all Her children at all times.

[Protoctista]

How does that make her any better than this Yahweh character people tell me about? Does creating life make you love-and-worship-worthy irrespective of how you treat it afterward?

[Heathen Dawn]

How does that make her any better than this Yahweh character people tell me about?

Yahweh supposedly does it deliberately. Nature doesn’t do anything.

[Protoctista]

I agree that Nature doesn't do anything, but only because I'm an atheist who doesn't think Nature is an agent. Mother-Earth-worshippers see her as a person, though (at least, I think they do). How can she be the Mother of all life if she doesn't even do anything?

[Heathen Dawn]

Mother-Earth-worshippers see her as something with a mind, though (at least, I think they do).

I worship Mother Earth but I don’t see Her as having a mind. I think the notion that Gaia has a mind is more common in New Age circles than in neopaganism.

How can she be the Mother of all life if she doesn't do anything?

Figurately, since the first life started on Her rocks and clays. A catalysing agent (lightning bolts, hydrothermal vents, whatever) is considered to be the figurative Father.

I like abiogenesis. :)

[Protoctista]

I worship Mother Earth but I don’t see Her as having a mind.

I see. Why worship a big mindless ball of rock, though?

Figurately, since the first life started on Her rocks and clays.

In the same figurative sense, mother Nature has killed and hurt many people. It sounds like you're giving Gaia credit for the good things, but not blame for the bad things.

[Heathen Dawn]

I see. Why worship a big mindless ball of rock, though?

Because I feel like it. Because that big mindless ball of rock is full of creative power.

In the same figurative sense, mother Nature has killed and hurt many people. It sounds like you're giving Gaia praise for the good things, but not blame for the bad things.

All right. Don’t think I’m averse to vaccines, though. Or lightning rods, or anaesthetics (for childbearing women).

[Karalora]

In the same figurative sense, mother Nature has killed and hurt many people. It sounds like you're giving Gaia credit for the good things, but not blame for the bad things.

Remember that humans are not the only living things on this big ball of rock. Our suffering and death benefits other organisms, such as bacteria and parasites. Remember also that humans make their living through the suffering and death of other living things. Life and death are the two inseparable sides of the coin that is biological existence. To say that Mother Earth (if she exists as a "person") is not worth worshiping because of human suffering is like a child deciding not to love its mother because she only sometimes favors him, and the rest of the time favors his siblings.

[Warthur]

OK, I’ll say this: it’s a matter of unconditional love. The Earth Goddess is worthy of worship because She is the Mother of all life, even if She does not show favour to all Her children at all times.

Magus got asked this question in another discussion, it's only fair if you get asked it too: what effect will space colonisation have on your beliefs?

What effect would the discovery of alien life have on your beliefs?

[Warthur]

Figurately, since the first life started on Her rocks and clays. A catalysing agent (lightning bolts, hydrothermal vents, whatever) is considered to be the figurative Father.

Where does the Sun, who giveth skin cancer and taketh away ice cream, fit into your symbology, given that all life that doesn't get its energy from volcanic vents depends upon it? (I suppose vent-life counts as breast feeding. :) )

[Protoctista]

Our suffering and death benefits other organisms, such as bacteria and parasites.

If a religion leads you to think that it's okay if people get ill and die because it feeds the bacteria, then maybe that religion isn't very healthy.

To say that Mother Earth (if she exists as a "person") is not worth worshiping because of human suffering is like a child deciding not to love its mother because she only sometimes favors him, and the rest of the time favors his siblings.

Actually, it's more like a child deciding not to love its mother because every now and then she's chopped off one of the child's limbs to feed it to its little brothers and sisters.

You sound a bit like some Christians, who trivialize people's wish not to die painful deaths by comparing them to spoiled children.

[Karalora]

If a religion leads you to think that it's okay if people get ill and die because it feeds the bacteria, then maybe that religion isn't very healthy.

That's not at all what I believe. I consider disease to be an amoral phenomenon that we have every right to fight. Of course we humans should put humans first. But it doesn't follow from that that such an entity as Mother Earth should put humans first, or that She is evil if She doesn't.

Actually, it's more like a child deciding not to love its mother because every now and then she's chopped off one of the child's limbs to feed it to its little brothers and sisters.

If you want to use this analogy, you have to be more complete. Mom occasionally chops off one of Child A's limbs to feed to Children B, C, and D...and she also lets Child A snack on Children B, C, and D. Also, everything she chops off grows back in time, often stronger and more healthy and more able to resist getting chopped off than it was before.

Suffering and loss is often the means for a person, or a family, or a nation, or a species, or a single butterfly to grow stronger and improve itself. This is only a philosophical problem for people who cannot conceive of a less-than-omnipotent deity.

You sound a bit like some Christians, who trivialize people's wish not to die painful deaths by comparing them to spoiled children.

I'm not trivializing people's wish to avoid painful death. I am merely saying that the existence of painful death by no means implies that the hypothetical deity in charge of the world must be evil.

[Protoctista]

But it doesn't follow from that that such an entity as Mother Earth should put humans first, or that She is evil if She doesn't.

I never said she was evil; she might be either actively sadistic or callously indifferent. (Since she doesn't exist, that question probably has no answer.) In any case, I'm confused as to why you would want to worship her. I also don't understand why you brought up the fact that bacteria sometimes benefit from our deaths.

Mom occasionally chops off one of Child A's limbs to feed to Children B, C, and D...and she also lets Child A snack on Children B, C, and D. Also, everything she chops off grows back in time, often stronger and more healthy and more able to resist getting chopped off than it was before.

Even if this analogy were accurate, do you think it would be unreasonable for children to stop loving their mother if she did this sort of thing?

The analogy isn't accurate, because dead people don't grow back, and not all illnesses are recovered from.

[Infidelettante]

As to worship of Mother Earth she is the seminal deity, the first one to whom we must offer devotion. All other god forms rise from her. All other god forms, IMO are symbolic, Mother Earth being the only actual deity in the sense that there is to her a physical presence. I would say that the best reason to worship mother Earth is that we tend not to destroy what we worship.

JT

[Karalora]

I never said she was evil; she might be either actively sadistic or callously indifferent. (Since she doesn't exist, that question probably has no answer.) In any case, I'm confused as to why you would want to worship her.

"Worship" is perhaps the wrong word. We Pagans tend to speak of revering the Earth rather than worshipping Her. As to why...She may not be unconditionally kind to us, but she is still our Mother and we need Her. Even on a purely materialistic and secular level, I am in awe of the Earth. I express that awe through ritualistic reverence.

I also don't understand why you brought up the fact that bacteria sometimes benefit from our deaths.

To show that the suffering and death of human beings is not necessarily a net loss from the point of view of the entire ecosystem. Mother Earth is not the Goddess of humans only.

Even if this analogy were accurate, do you think it would be unreasonable for children to stop loving their mother if she did this sort of thing?

No, it wouldn't be unreasonable. But neither would it be unreasonable for the children to continue loving their mother, recognizing that she loved them all equally and caused them pain because there was no other way she could help them grow. It all depends on what your priorities are.

The analogy isn't accurate, because dead people don't grow back, and not all illnesses are recovered from.

No, dead people don't grow back. But new people are born. Each child in this analogy represents a species, not an individual. When a lizard regrows its tail, it does not reclaim the cells that were present in the old one; it grows new cells.

[espritch]

I would say that the best reason to worship mother Earth is that we tend not to destroy what we worship.

Perhaps. But we do have an unfortunate history of waging holy wars and worse for the sake of things we worship. Reverence may not be a bad thing but worship has a history of being quite dangerous.

[Yeshi]

I see. Why worship a big mindless ball of rock, though?

Because I feel like it. Because that big mindless ball of rock is full of creative power.

due to displacement of vision, the duality arises. (so we invent forces external to ourselves)

"It is your mind that creates this world"

Dhammapada

[Heathen Dawn]

Magus got asked this question in another discussion, it's only fair if you get asked it too: what effect will space colonisation have on your beliefs?

If other worlds are populated only by human efforts, they would be lesser mothers, in that they support life, but they had not given birth to it like Earth did.

What effect would the discovery of alien life have on your beliefs?

That would be the finding of more Earth Goddesses.

Where does the Sun, who giveth skin cancer and taketh away ice cream, fit into your symbology, given that all life that doesn't get its energy from volcanic vents depends upon it? (I suppose vent-life counts as breast feeding. ;) )

As the lightning striking upon the Archaean sea to produce life’s building blocks may be considered to be the first Great Rite (union of male and female), so too Mother Earth’s reception of Father Sun’s warm embrace may be considered to be a mating.

Good that you mention it now, just yesterday I wrote an article that ends with that theme:

From Sabbath-Keeper to Sabbat-Celebrator (http://www.geocities.com/eclecticsatyr/ojexp.htm) (my personal testimony of how I became a Wiccan)

[no_more_700_club]

I am a pantheist with pagan leanings, mainly because I enjoy the pagan community and the feeling of acceptance and tolerence I get from them. I never really found that in any IRL atheist/agnostic community, even when I was agnostic. Maybe I just ran into the wrong ones?

I don't believe I believe in the gods. I have strange dreams and coinicidences in my life that should lead me to believe that they exist, but I just can't make the jump across the faith gorge, I guess. If they exist, I do believe them just to be another part of nature. I do not believe in supernature. If it exists (gods, ghosts, souls, etc), it has to be explainable or eventually explainable.

However, I think the cycles and balances that exist in nature are worthy of my respect and reverence. I don't see them as being either good or evil, they just are what is. Something has to die so I can live. One day, I will die, and other living things will reap the benefit from it. That's just the way it has been, and I imagine, continue to be, long after all of us are dead. I guess in this way all of us are literally reincarnated...

That said, I seriously doubt there is any external control or puppetmaster of the cycle. There could be, but I am not going to hold my breath. One could say it is ridiculous to respect something that cannot realize that it is being respected, but I never claimed that this will to respect the cycle was entirely rational. It comes from just what I feel is right. :)

[Anitra]

Paganism is the term which encompasses several religions which have in common a spirituality which features reverence for the earth prominently.
A Wiccan is necessarily a Pagan, but a Pagan is not always a Wiccan.

I thank you, my husband the pagan thanks you. :) Wes gave up posting to "pagan" discussion groups because he got sick of being told by Wiccans that he wasn't 'really' a pagan.

The word "pagan" originated as a reference to the 'peasants' of whatever region that had not accepted the Christianity of the urbanites. It has sometimes been used to refer to any nonchristian religion, usually, just the non-monotheist religions; more strictly, the more nature-oriented religions that never made the "big time" and became "socially respected." Wicca may be on its way to social respect, which will mean that after another century or so it may not be regarded as "pagan" at all. :)

[Heathen Dawn]

Hinduism has grown into a respectable religion, but I still consider it a pagan religion. I don’t know, and in fact I don’t think anyone really knows, by what criteria a religion should be classified as pagan. Non-Abrahamic? No, Buddhists aren’t pagans. Polytheistic? No, Mormons aren’t pagans. Nature-worshipping? No, Thelemites are pagans who don’t worship nature.

[Infidelettante]

HD raises a question I’ve thought of recently. How do those who post here in [NAR&P] define their spiritual paths? Is yours non-Abrahamic, non-theist, a-theist, non-western, eastern? Are you a non-Abrahamic Theist? Is a Hindu a non-Abrahamic Theist? Is a Buddhist also an Atheist? Are Goddess worshiping Pagans and Wiccans Theists?

How do you classify your religious understanding? Where do you fit on the spectrum of religiosity? Yes, some of you will balk and insist you can’t be pigeon-holed but do please try, I think it would be interesting to know, and to discuss.

JT

[Aquila ka Hecate]

Howzit Infidelettante,

I'm happy to play.

Although it sounds corny, I consider my Paganism as a lifestyle, not a religion.

I am certainly an atheist, identifying with the absurdity of the idea of god(s), yet I celebrate life and the universe yaddayadda etc etc by casting a circle, burning incense and lighting candles.

(The incense, as Aziraphael noted, is not strictly necessary, but it does make the place smell nice)

So, ya-non- or a- theist, practising Pagan Lifestyle, on the spectrum.

Kind Regards,
Terri

PS Anitra-I've just about given up on 'Pagan' boards as well-they seem to attract the very dimmest of the dim.My sympathy.

[Aquila ka Hecate]

As a bit of a further expansion, this is a question we're asking ourselves right now in South Africa:
"Who is to be considered a Pagan?"

The answer is far more complicated than we would've thought a few years ago, for we have practitioners of traditional African Spirituality who have never previously considered themselves Pagan who now fit the bill.

Some of them have now come out and adopted the Pagan label for themselves, but this seems to be annoying a few of the white community of NeoPagans, who appear to be hanging on to some misguided form of white exclusionism.Black people, to them, cannot be Pagans as well.

Urgg..my country.

We also have a nontrivial set of Hindus , some of whom are also laying claim to the Pagan label.

Recently we created a 'Pagan Freedom Day' event , on the 10th anniversary of our country's freedom (27th April) to celebrate the fact that we were all Pagans who said we were, and to promote the great constitutional freedom of religion which we enjoy here.

As an atheist, this makes me feel very good.

But the discussion continues.

It's a good talking point indeed.

[no_more_700_club]

Hinduism has grown into a respectable religion, but I still consider it a pagan religion.

I've also always tended to think that the Hindus were pagan, but my perception is colored a little by my experiences with the WCER...

Mileage may vary...

[gurugeorge]

HD raises a question I’ve thought of recently. How do those who post here in [NAR&P] define their spiritual paths? Is yours non-Abrahamic, non-theist, a-theist, non-western, eastern? Are you a non-Abrahamic Theist? Is a Hindu a non-Abrahamic Theist? Is a Buddhist also an Atheist? Are Goddess worshiping Pagans and Wiccans Theists?

How do you classify your religious understanding? Where do you fit on the spectrum of religiosity? Yes, some of you will balk and insist you can’t be pigeon-holed but do please try, I think it would be interesting to know, and to discuss.

JT

Pantheist or Panentheist, depending on my mood. The sensible world is the body of an Entity that will always outstrip all conception and imagining. Each and every one of us, as well as every blade of grass, every star, every microbe, is that Entity and reflects in its being the Whole. Our eyes are Its eyes; every tongue is Its tongue; every mind Its mind, the intelligent acknowledgement of Itself and the myriad possibilities it has blindly created.

It is a many-headed "monster of energy" (Nietzsche), at war with itself, and yet fundamentally at peace, all its reactions, all its sound and fury, summing to Zero.

Theism, atheism and agnosticism all have good points and bad points, as do Abrahamic and non-Abrahamic religions; as do all the various rationalisms, from Ayn Rand to Karl Popper.

The truth is likely to be weirder than anyone could imagine. After all, something exists rather than nothing - I mean, what could be weirder than that?

[premjan]

basically the word "pagan" used pejoratively by abrahamics, means, in this context, people who venerate some aspect of phenomenal reality. abrahamics, on the other hand, worship only the "word" which is assumed to be a pure communication between an extrauniversal entity called God and one or other of his chosen prophets. In physics, you would call pagans experimental physicists whereas "semitics" (my opposite word of pagan) would be theoretical phsicists.

[Heathen Dawn]

How do those who post here in [NAR&P] define their spiritual paths?

I define myself as a Wiccan, a neopagan and a non-Abrahamic theist. My path can formally be called Eclectic Wicca (in distinction from Traditional Wicca).

Is a Hindu a non-Abrahamic Theist?

Yes.

Is a Buddhist also an Atheist?

Not necessarily. They’re more of practical atheists than philosophical atheists. Vajradhara explained this to me: Buddhists can believe Gods exist, but they believe Gods and other creatures are interchangeable through the Wheel of Reincarnation, so that worshipping the Gods makes as much sense as worshipping cockroaches.

Are Goddess worshiping Pagans and Wiccans Theists?

Yes. To be a theist you have to believe in one deity or more.

How do you classify your religious understanding? Where do you fit on the spectrum of religiosity?

I’m a religious pagan theist. A literal polytheist, believing the Gods are real and not archetypes, metaphors. Believer in the efficacy of magic and in the reality of life after death. This is my favorite quote, from Raven Kaldera:

Magic is real. The Gods are real. The Otherworlds are real. None of this is metaphorical. I’d like to see more pagans actually being theists, not just playing around with archetypes and thinking that this isn’t real. In other words, I’d like to see more pagans being religious, not just vaguely spiritual.

[Heathen Dawn]

I've also always tended to think that the Hindus were pagan, but my perception is colored a little by my experiences with the WCER...

What’s the WCER?

[premjan]

World Council of Ethnic Religions (http://www.wcer.org/)

[Heathen Dawn]

Thanks. :)

[brighid]

If a religion leads you to think that it's okay if people get ill and die because it feeds the bacteria, then maybe that religion isn't very healthy.



Actually, it's more like a child deciding not to love its mother because every now and then she's chopped off one of the child's limbs to feed it to its little brothers and sisters.

You sound a bit like some Christians, who trivialize people's wish not to die painful deaths by comparing them to spoiled children.

I think you are taking a negative view on a belief system that is rather inaccurate. As a secular pagan I believe that life and death are inescapable. I will one day die. Everything will someday day, including this Earth. I see my death as a natural part of the cycle of life. Something must die in order that something else might live. This is an essential part of nature. Each organism feeds off of another, and another ... right up the food chain. Although we are "at the top" so to speak our deaths allows for those lower on the food chain to exist, and thereby start the cycle of death, life and rebirth all over again.

There is no trivialization in accepting death as a natural part of life. It simply is. It is unavoidable. I can't speak for any other pagan other than myself, but I don't view natural death negatively (murder and other unnatural deaths, yes this I view negatively, but this would then get into a discussion better suited for Morals, Foundations and Principles.) I will, just as you will, return to the Earth our species and every other species has been born from.

The Earth give us everything, and in this sense is our "Mother." The Earth is not some anthropomorphic deity that has a mind and a consciousness of Her own. But without the nourishment from the Earth we all die. When we carelessly destroy the ozone layer millions of people contract skin cancer and many of them needlessly die (this is not a "natural" death.) When we pollute our oceans, lakes, streams and rivers we not only kill what exists in that ecosystem but we poison ourselves and many die unnatural and unnecessary deaths. When we strip the forests of its ancient trees, medicinal plants and indigenous wildlife to build our homes we not only harm the Earth but we harm ourselves. Mother Earth will recover from our destruction, but human kind may not. She has survived many different catastrophic changes that decimated almost all life on Earth. If we care about our species we need to have more reverance for that which we cannot exist without, and this would be "Mother" Earth.

SO Mother Earth does not "give" anyone cancer, we have infact stripped away the natural protections the Earth provides all life through our arrogance and careless destruction of our Home. Mother Earth doesn't "destroy" anyone because they "sinned." The Earth simply is, and all the exists on Earth (and outside of Earth, including life on other planets which would not in any way change my views as I would see it as a natural extension of life) is natural. There is no supernatural. All that is and all that will ever be has an organic beginning and an organic end. What came from the Earth will someday return in the form of a corpse (or perhaps as ashes for those who are creamated.)

We cannot escape her grasp. We cannot contain Her power. We cannot hide from the seasons; the rain, the snow, the hurricane, the tornado, the monsoon nor can we hide from the natural rhytms of life, death and rebirth (and I don't mean reincarnation.)

As a secular pagan I embrace the ebb and flow of the seasons. I celebrate them and I honor them to cultivate my own consciousness. The winter is a time of death that leads to renewal. The spring brings new life, growth, hope and warmth. The summer is a time of fulfillment before the harvest. In autumn we reap the benefits of our harvest and prepare for the coming of the cold and the darkness ... all of these cycles are also symbolic and there significance is played out in the Sabbats and the esbats, as the Wheel of the Year turns.

Your seed in planted in your mothers womb and in the spring you emerge, your youth is the summer of your existence and your mature in the autumn of your journey, and in old age we are winter, we are the Crone and one day we will all pass into oblivion to return to where all life sprang and we will nourish some other life so the cycle can continue. This is fact.

In this sense everyone should revere the Earth, respect Her. Because no matter how arrogant we become. No matter how many times we conquer the summit of K2 or Mount Everest, no matter how many advances we make, not matter how many ships we send to orbit Saturn or to orbit the Earth and Moon, no matter how many lives we save by medical advances we cannot escape Her grasp. She will have the final say (figuratively that is.) Or perhaps if we one day we succeed in escaping this planet and colonizing another the Universe will be no less "merciful."

It is the arrogance of man that he is someone how greater than this Earth, somehow seperate and superior, independent and therefore can do whatever he wishes without consequence that is the problem. Not the peaceful pagan who simply takes time to intune herself with this "Mother" and respect all life on Earth, and through ritual and "worship" expands her consciousness in order to have a greater respect for all that is.

Brighid

[Protoctista]

Brighid (, Karalora):

I just wrote a reply to your post, but I decided against posting it: it wasn't very polite, and there's probably no point in discussing this sort of thing at length anyway.

Instead, I'll just mention for the record that the world view you're expounding is one I very much don't like.

[Heathen Dawn]

Instead, I'll just mention for the record that the world view you're expounding is one I very much don't like.

You’re entitled to dislike the worship of Mother Earth, just as I dislike the Christians’ worshipping a God who supposedly has the majority of mankind scheduled for eternal torment. But I’m not going to act upon my dislike and forbid Christians from worshipping their God, and I hope you won’t concerning us either.

[Protoctista]

Um, no. The last time I've heard an atheist seriously propose making any religion illegal must have been several years ago. Why do people keep bringing this up?

[Aquila ka Hecate]

......brighid

*weeps joyfully*

May I use this beautiful passage on my eGroup (Secular Paganism)?

I think more people, who don't come here, need to read it.

And HD, Protoctista is a transhumanist, so naturally the Pagan worldview is abhorrent to him or her.It's diametrically opposed .

[Kassiana]

I am a liberal Pagan theist who attends a Unitarian Universalist church. I specifically worship a personal God of humor and three Gods of ancient Egypt, Isis, Nut, and Ra. I use Wiccan ritual style and also gain some inspiration from Deism and Discordia. I don't care if there isn't an afterlife, as this life is enough of a blessing for me. If there is an afterlife, I know my Gods will care for me in it, so I'm not worried about that, either. I rather like atheists. (My mother is one, so I have to. ;) ) There are jerks in every group of humans, and I dislike all of them for being jerks, not for their group membership. I'm also a Sagittarius and read extensively. I like long walks by the ocean, looking up at the stars, and pet birds. I'm married and have a one year old daughter. This must stop before it is mistaken for a personals ad. Oops. :D

[Heathen Dawn]

And HD, Protoctista is a transhumanist, so naturally the Pagan worldview is abhorrent to him or her. It's diametrically opposed.

I know, I viewed his/her profile. In my mind, transhumanism suffers from the same problem as Mormonism: hubris, the thought that humans could ever become Gods.

[brighid]

Brighid (, Karalora):

I just wrote a reply to your post, but I decided against posting it: it wasn't very polite, and there's probably no point in discussing this sort of thing at length anyway.

Instead, I'll just mention for the record that the world view you're expounding is one I very much don't like.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and thank you for being polite. I honestly can't even imagine why you would find such a position so much to your dislike :confused: Unfortunately my discussion time is severely limited and will be into the near future, but if you are capable of having a discussion that does not devolve into something less than polite I would be more than happy to discuss your thoughts.

Regards,
Brighid

[brighid]

......

*weeps joyfully*

May I use this beautiful passage on my eGroup (Secular Paganism)?

I think more people, who don't come here, need to read it.

And HD, Protoctista is a transhumanist, so naturally the Pagan worldview is abhorrent to him or her.It's diametrically opposed .

Please do (and you honor me, thank you) ... I won't be completely gone and the "ax" has not yet fallen, so until it does I will continue to post when I can.

I will have to familiarize myself with transhumanism in order to understand why transhumanists would so dislike my worldview. :(

Brighid

[leanan]

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Whatever the name, Wicca, Pagan, Druid, etc., all are of the original Nature based spirituality of our ancestors, before such beliefs were demonized by mainstream religions of thw West and Middle East. All have pantheons depending upon their traditions, cultures or choice.
So much was lost in the "throwing out of the bath (christening)water", that most of us depend on fragments augmented by archeology, educated guesses and visualization.
For myself, I try to experience and honor the Forces or Deities of Nature and the Cosmos the way my pre-Celtic ancestors of Ireland and Scotland may have felt them.
Nature, contrary to popular belief, is intelligent far beyond our finite, civilized and closed minds, though not necessarily following our logic. We must remember we are part of that intelligence and act accordingly with respect and responsibility.
Slan agus beannacht, Leanan

[Heathen Dawn]

Welcome, leanan, to IIDB. :) Blessed be.

[Anitra]

I will have to familiarize myself with transhumanism in order to understand why transhumanists would so dislike my worldview.From what I understand, Brighid -- and transhumanists are welcome to correct me -- transhumanist philosophy regards evolution as a forward drive with intelligent life (humanity) at the leading edge, and our human responsibility is to use our intelligence to evolve further. Species loyalty is pretty strongly implied. :) Most transhumanists seem to regard personal immortality as a positive goal to strive for; one could be said to even have a duty to strive for it, and against all opposition.

A view in which humans are only part of the web of life, and not a particularly special part, is pretty contrary to that.

Some references:
http://www.mit.edu/people/jpbonsen/#0
http://www.free-definition.com/Transhumanism.html

[sbaii]

As an atheist I feel bombarded on all sides by wrongheaded irrationality. The fundies want to rid the world of secular education (except where it can benefit the top dogs) and generally make greed masked by illogic the operational mode of this country. All this worshipping of ancient gods that were supplanted long ago appears to me to be an enormous step backward in human thought. I know some people who have become pagans or worshippers of Diana. In the latter case, she feels that she can control a serious skin condition through her new religion. She also gets some prestige as a wise woman who teaches classes in her religion. Another friend just likes to dance by the light of the moon. Those who take their religions more seriously where they are performing daily rituals I presume are finding a similar comfort to those who meditate. I have been invited to join pagan winter solstice rituals, but I have to admit I wonder about 21st century people who perform rituals to bring the sun back every year. They can't really believe that, can they?
I am very concerned about the poisons we have created and the acceleration of global warming, but I don't think one prayer or burnt offering is going to change it. If I have to attend a meeting about the importance of evolution in the schools, I would hope that the atheist pagans or atheist wiccans would stay home. Because as soon as they start talking about Gaia or some other goddess in the same breath as atheism, they are relegating me along with them to the lunatic fringe.

[Heathen Dawn]

As an atheist I feel bombarded on all sides by wrongheaded irrationality.

Atheists aren’t free of irrationality. Ask an atheist about cosmology and origins of the universe and you’ll find out.

All this worshipping of ancient gods that were supplanted long ago appears to me to be an enormous step backward in human thought.

Based on the assumption that the ancient Gods were actually supplanted.

I have been invited to join pagan winter solstice rituals, but I have to admit I wonder about 21st century people who perform rituals to bring the sun back every year. They can't really believe that, can they?

What’s wrong with that? There is no guarantee that the sun will shine next year.

I am very concerned about the poisons we have created and the acceleration of global warming, but I don't think one prayer or burnt offering is going to change it.

Okay, that’s your choice.

If I have to attend a meeting about the importance of evolution in the schools, I would hope that the atheist pagans or atheist wiccans would stay home. Because as soon as they start talking about Gaia or some other goddess in the same breath as atheism, they are relegating me along with them to the lunatic fringe.

So much condescension, so little tolerance, even towards your supposed peers. No “Brights Movement” is going to fix that, you must fix yourselves.

[sbaii]

So much condescension, so little tolerance, even towards your supposed peers. No “Brights Movement� is going to fix that, you must fix yourselves.[/QUOTE]


I thought I reflected an understanding about why some people would choose to worship Diana or perform rituals. My reference to the lunatic fringe is my assessment of how such talk about Gaia et al. would be interpreted by the average person at a meeting on the teaching of evolution. Condescension is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. None intended.

[Karalora]

All this worshipping of ancient gods that were supplanted long ago appears to me to be an enormous step backward in human thought.

As an atheist, you surely believe that all deities are equally imaginary. You also are surely familiar with the Appeal to Novelty fallacy. That Yahweh/Allah remains popular to this day does not make him a better or more likely God than Zeus or Thor.

Take note of your own words--the Pagan gods were supplanted. Their worshippers did not get fed up with them and quit--the followers of Yahweh/Allah actively suppressed Paganism, and instituted their own religion, wherever they gained a foothold.

I have been invited to join pagan winter solstice rituals, but I have to admit I wonder about 21st century people who perform rituals to bring the sun back every year. They can't really believe that, can they?

I don't know of any Neopagans whose Solstice rituals are literally meant to "bring back the Sun". The theme of a Yule ritual is generally to welcome back the Sun and celebrate the incipient lengthening of days. The vast majority of serious Neopagans are rational, scientifically literate people. We don't wish to be conflated with the fluffbunny New Age lunatic fringe any more than you do.

Perhaps you should attend the next ritual you are invited to. You seem to be laboring under a number of misconceptions about what Neopagans actually do and believe.

[Warthur]

What’s wrong with that? There is no guarantee that the sun will shine next year.

Of course! There's every chance that the Sun will suddenly, spontaneously, exhibit behaviour contrary to everything we understand about Main Sequence stars from our observation of many, many stars at various stages in their development.

I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it, though, or have Ye Olde Winter Rituale to try and influence the fusion processes happening 8 light minutes away. I don't feel that I really need an excuse like Bringing Back the Sun or Marking the Birth of the Son to have a party in December.

[knuckles644]

Don't you know that the sun is just really Apollo riding across the sky on his chariot? :confused:

[sbaii]

welcome back the Sun and celebrate the incipient lengthening of days. The vast majority of serious Neopagans are rational, scientifically literate people. We don't wish to be conflated with the fluffbunny New Age lunatic fringe any more than you do.

Perhaps you should attend the next ritual you are invited to. You seem to be laboring under a number of misconceptions about what Neopagans actually do and believe.[/QUOTE]

* * * * *

Why not give me some idea of the prayers recited at such rituals. An American buddhist online at another site quoted at length some of the prayers said weekly at his meetings and they revealed that his group prayed to Buddha as though he were some kind of deity. Prayers can reveal a lot about a group's thinking.

[gsx1138]

Each coven is a little different. However, metaphore and symbolism are huge in traditionalist groups. This is starkly different than other religions who have become so 'literal' dependant. I can't post a writ from my coven or tell you how we do ours other than to say that poetry/folklore/and symobolism run through every act and word. And that's probably saying too much. If you can get a good grasp on some fairly universal archtypes you'll be pretty set in understanding what is going on during th ritual. I see many people who watch an open ritual trying to figure out why someone is calling quarters or why things are done in a certain order. These things generally have hidden meanings that appear as good ol' fashion Gods worship.

It would also be good to read a little Joseph Campbell. He got a little too close for comfort with some of his views on mythological archtypes. My only advice is metaphore, metaphore, metaphore. Everything in a writ should have an obvious and hidden meaning with an understanding as to why there are both and what each really mean. Of course, at the end of the day Paganism is still a mystery religion in that the actual experience is more important than words. I liken it to Zen. No amount of reading can make up for the actual experience. And if you go there and get nothing then, ok. In our religion you don't go to hell for not believing.

[Samuel Waite]

Read Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler. It's one of the few scholarly works on the subject that you'll find in most bookstores. And it happens to be excellent.

[sbaii]

Each coven is a little different. However, metaphore and symbolism are huge in traditionalist groups. This is starkly different than other religions who have become so 'literal' dependant. I can't post a writ from my coven or tell you how we do ours other than to say that poetry/folklore/and symobolism run through every act and word. And that's probably saying too much. If you can get a good grasp on some fairly universal archtypes you'll be pretty set in understanding what is going on during th ritual. I see many people who watch an open ritual trying to figure out why someone is calling quarters or why things are done in a certain order. These things generally have hidden meanings that appear as good ol' fashion Gods worship.

It would also be good to read a little Joseph Campbell. He got a little too close for comfort with some of his views on mythological archtypes. My only advice is metaphore, metaphore, metaphore. Everything in a writ should have an obvious and hidden meaning with an understanding as to why there are both and what each really mean. Of course, at the end of the day Paganism is still a mystery religion in that the actual experience is more important than words. I liken it to Zen. No amount of reading can make up for the actual experience. And if you go there and get nothing then, ok. In our religion you don't go to hell for not believing.

It sounds like you belong to some kind of secret society. Why should I trust such a group? Why should I not be concerned when you say you can't reveal what your coven does?

[Heathen Dawn]

It sounds like you belong to some kind of secret society.

Maybe, but it’s not.

Why should I not be concerned when you say you can't reveal what your coven does?

It isn’t an issue of not revealing because of wishing to keep things a secret (like Jesus speaking in parables so that the common people would be kept in the dark—now THERE’S a secret society for you! :D). The problem is that the Divine Mysteries cannot be communicated with words in human language. The proof of the pudding can only be in the eating; if people don’t communicate the taste of the pudding to you in words, this is not because they’re mean people but because they simply can’t.

[Warthur]

It isn’t an issue of not revealing because of wishing to keep things a secret (like Jesus speaking in parables so that the common people would be kept in the dark—now THERE’S a secret society for you! :D). The problem is that the Divine Mysteries cannot be communicated with words in human language. The proof of the pudding can only be in the eating; if people don’t communicate the taste of the pudding to you in words, this is not because they’re mean people but because they simply can’t.

That's funny, Jesus and Buddha and L. Ron Hubbard tended to say much the same thing.

The parables are classic examples of the use of metaphor, symbolism and so forth that gsx1138 been talking about. It's a little unfair to on one hand say "Woah, Jesus is totally keeping the plebs in the dark," and then refuse to talk about your rituals because We Aren't Ready For The Hard Stuff. I think there's some hot pot-on-kettle action going on here. ;)

After all, sbaii never asked for a direct religious experience, just a transcript of the ritual you use at the Winter Solstice. I don't see Christian churches hiding the prayerbook from the Outsiders. :)

[Heathen Dawn]

After all, sbaii never asked for a direct religious experience, just a transcript of the ritual you use at the Winter Solstice. I don't see Christian churches hiding the prayerbook from the Outsiders. :)

Sorry for the misunderstanding (apology to sbaii).

Get a full bevy of Traditional Wiccan rituals here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm

It’s the Book of Shadows of Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca. The first time I read it, I was in a shock for quite a few days. :D

[tangiellis]

It sounds like you belong to some kind of secret society. Why should I trust such a group? Why should I not be concerned when you say you can't reveal what your coven does?

You can trust whoever and whatever you want. That choice is up to you. I cannot speak for anyone else save myself in this discussion. I am a part of a loose coven of two other women. The rituals we practice, the prayers we recite, these things are sacred to us, extremely personal. Rather like being naked. ;) These are thoughts and parts of our hearts that we share with no one save each other and the cosmos around us.

We share a bond, a sisterhood, the likes of which I can't describe. But each time something happens to one of us, we know instantly. We are connected in a way that I am not connected to anyone else.

I'm more than sure that there are things in this life that you share with others and no one else. Secrets that you hold close to you. No one is condemning you for that. I say whatever floats your boat.

There certainly are enough people willing to shout from the rafters what they believe for you to find out the gist if you honestly wish to know.

Tangie

[sbaii]

[It isn’t an issue of not revealing because of wishing to keep things a secret (like Jesus speaking in parables so that the common people would be kept in the dark—now THERE’S a secret society for you! :D). The problem is that the Divine Mysteries cannot be communicated with words in human language. The proof of the pudding can only be in the eating; if people don’t communicate the taste of the pudding to you in words, this is not because they’re mean people but because they simply can’t.[/QUOTE]


I learned that Jesus spoke in parables to make his message better understood not to hide anything. What do you think he was hiding?

When you say something cannot be explained in words, then that sounds like it is not rational but purely emotional. Why should we be led by our emotions? I am also troubled by the quote in one of your posts with the URL http://csicop.org/doubtandabout/brights/ which in effect said that
atheists are cold and unfeeling nerds. It also accused atheists of "unrelenting inquisitiveness" as though there were something wrong with questioning and learning. This is at the heart of what I distrust so much about religion, when they say "Stop thinking and just believe." Can you understand that? Why did you include that quote in your post?

[sbaii]

Get a full bevy of Traditional Wiccan rituals here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm

It’s the Book of Shadows of Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca. The first time I read it, I was in a shock for quite a few days. :D[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the website. Under the eight fold way, there is mention of drugs. What does this refer to?

I am also intrigued with your location in the Holy Land (if that's truly where you are). If you are in the Middle East somewhere, I'd love to hear what it's like to live there. Please send me a private message since it's probably off-topic for this forum.

[Karalora]

Don't you know that the sun is just really Apollo riding across the sky on his chariot? :confused:

And here I was under the impression that it was a giant hydrogen fusion reactor 93 million miles away. You sure showed me. :rolleyes:

[Protoctista]

Get a full bevy of Traditional Wiccan rituals here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm

It’s the Book of Shadows of Gerald Gardner, the founder of Wicca. The first time I read it, I was in a shock for quite a few days. :D

I clicked randomly somewhere in it, and it mentioned the "domains of the Dread Lords of the Outer Spaces". Does this mean Cthulhu-like beings play a role in Wicca, or does it refer to something else completely?

[Protoctista]

This isn't very nice:

And if any break these laws, even under torture, The Curse of the Goddess shall be upon them, so they never reborn on earth, And may they remain where they belong, in the Hell of the Christians.

[Kassiana]

Personally, I couldn't share with you any of the rituals I use, because I don't write them down. :) Horribly sinister of me, I know.

[brighid]

welcome back the Sun and celebrate the incipient lengthening of days. The vast majority of serious Neopagans are rational, scientifically literate people. We don't wish to be conflated with the fluffbunny New Age lunatic fringe any more than you do.

Perhaps you should attend the next ritual you are invited to. You seem to be laboring under a number of misconceptions about what Neopagans actually do and believe.

* * * * *

Why not give me some idea of the prayers recited at such rituals. An American buddhist online at another site quoted at length some of the prayers said weekly at his meetings and they revealed that his group prayed to Buddha as though he were some kind of deity. Prayers can reveal a lot about a group's thinking.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know about other covens but we don’t “pray�, at all as a matter of fact. What an individual in her solitary practice does may be entirely different, but prayer as it is commonly known is not a part of my practice or that of my group. Although there are some standard things that are recited at some rituals, nearly everything we do is uniquely created for each Sabbat, esbat, or other ritual.

Unfortunately, because of family obligations and schedules at the time of both the Summer and Winter Solstice I very often miss those rituals. My coven is not a “secret society� even if secrecy is paramount to what goes in Circle. It is so for many reasons – personal security and most of all trust. Intimate and deeply personal things are shared in Circle and what is discussed in Circle must remain there. We do not discuss all the specifics of any ritual, simply because we very often incorporate those personal needs into what we do. Unfortunately, this world is filled with intolerance and ignorance and “outing� oneself is something no one can do for another. It is important to protect what goes on in Circle and who attends Circle for the personal safety of our bodies, our children and our jobs.

There is an enormous amount of information available on the Web, including rituals, spell casting, articles, etc. http://www.witchvox.com is a good place to go to discover information about pagan/neo-pagan ritual. Here is information about an upcoming Sabbat, Lughnasadh http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/xlughnasadh.html

From that article: “Lughnasadh is a time of personal reflection and harvest, of our actions and deeds, events and experiences, our gains and losses. A time when we begin the cycle of reflection of that which is our life. A period for personal fertility magic to ensure the bountiful harvest of life's gifts and experiences, that which we have reaped though trial, tribulation, enjoyment, joy, love and loss. As my Elder once said to me, "We can not know what we have not experienced." Such is the truth of life ö we become not by chance but by experience. Each experience opens a window into ourselves, into who we were, who we are, and whom we are choosing to become.�

Some things that might take place during the Sabbat of Lugnasadh: We usually begin with a guided visualization relevant to the work at hand and in this case it would reflection on what “seeds we have sown�, what “harvest we have reaped� and what we hope to reap before the coming of Winter. In the Spring we planted to seeds of our desire. Let us say for one person that desire may have been to conceive a child, or for another it will have been to complete course work at the university, or another was to work on being kinder to herself, etc. Have these things come to fruition? If not, what obstacles has the individual put in her way to sabotage that harvest, or what obstacles has life put in her path? What can she do to overcome these obstacles? What has she done well, even if she has not yet achieved her desires?

After a guided visualization has been completed we may retire to the kitchen to write down what we thought of during the visualization. At this point a specially concocted tea or other beverage will be drunk in order to calm, relax or invigorate the participants. We will then descend to the basement where our Circle is held. The Circle will be cast, and a God and or Goddess may be “called� to be a part of the ritual. A relevant story will be shared, perhaps something about the importance of self-reflection and keeping ones mind focused on the goal(s) at hand.

We may sing or dance, or for those who are musically inclined play a piece of music she selected for the occasion. We will share “cakes and ale� (perhaps homemade corn cakes and a raspberry ale for Lughnasadh) and we may do some “spell casting� that would help an individual refocus on an unattained goal or even celebrate an achieved goal.

We will “open� the Circle and we will then retire upstairs for a celebratory meal. The food we eat will be relevant to the season. Here we will talk about our personal lives, and we may discuss what took place in Circle.

Even those individuals in my coven who are theists and believe in actual Gods and Goddesses don’t believe in a literal “calling back of the sun� at Winter Solstice/Yule. It is symbolic/metaphorical. No one has the power to “call� the sun back. It will simply return, unless there is some cataclysmic cosmic event and I think we would all be pretty much dead. These rituals are often a commemoration of how people once lived and how their lives were very much tied to the cycle of the seasons. Technology has largely detached us from that reality, and in many ways made life easier but at the same time disconnected us with a reality even modern man cannot escape.

Our minds, bodies and lives are impacted by the seasons. We feel more healthy and alive during the spring and summer with the return of vegetation and especially the healthful benefits of the sun. The isolation of winter, especially when it seems like the spring will never return, many people experience “cabin fever� or seasonal effective disorder … and some of us experience a vitamin deficiency due to lack of sun light … welcoming the sun back in to our lives is just that … a welcoming ritual. We know with the return of the sun we will taste fresh, ripe fruits and vegetables again. We know we will be able to leave the house and enjoy the fresh air of spring. Spring house cleaning has it origins in pagan ritual.

All in all, it’s all about living and feeling alive and not simply moving through the motions of life and death. Ritual is about reconnecting to the ones self first, those around us and especially the Earth. It’s a celebration of life, the coming of the sun, the emergence of the birds and flowers in spring, and the mating of all life, the joy of frolicking in the ocean in summer, enjoying a bountiful meal, realizing ones place in life, and preparing the emotional, mental and real harvest for the coming of winter, recognizing death and dormancy and realizing the hope that will come in the Spring when the sun triumphs over darkness again.

There is nothing to fear in our rituals, there is nothing to hide, except from those ignorant people who refuse to understand a benign practice and turn into something immoral and evil.


Because Wicca has no centralized Church or hierarchy you won't find "weekly" prayers or rituals on line. No two covens are alike. No two rituals are alike. However you will find what many people post about their rituals, etc.

Brighid

[badger3k]

Of course! There's every chance that the Sun will suddenly, spontaneously, exhibit behaviour contrary to everything we understand about Main Sequence stars from our observation of many, many stars at various stages in their development.

I don't think I'll be losing sleep over it, though, or have Ye Olde Winter Rituale to try and influence the fusion processes happening 8 light minutes away. I don't feel that I really need an excuse like Bringing Back the Sun or Marking the Birth of the Son to have a party in December.

I think a better analogy is why we celebrate birthdays or New Years Eve. They are just that, celebrations, the reasons of which are many. Some people celebrate them because they made it though another year, some do it to mark a passage in their lives, and some do it just to be part of a group or to party. Most rituals are similar (at least in my view).

[brighid]

I think a better analogy is why we celebrate birthdays or New Years Eve. They are just that, celebrations, the reasons of which are many. Some people celebrate them because they made it though another year, some do it to mark a passage in their lives, and some do it just to be part of a group or to party. Most rituals are similar (at least in my view).


I think this is a good analogy and really any excuse/reason to celebrate life is a good one :)

Brighid

[Shven]

I thank you, my husband the pagan thanks you. :) Wes gave up posting to "pagan" discussion groups because he got sick of being told by Wiccans that he wasn't 'really' a pagan.

The word "pagan" originated as a reference to the 'peasants' of whatever region that had not accepted the Christianity of the urbanites. It has sometimes been used to refer to any nonchristian religion, usually, just the non-monotheist religions; more strictly, the more nature-oriented religions that never made the "big time" and became "socially respected." Wicca may be on its way to social respect, which will mean that after another century or so it may not be regarded as "pagan" at all. :)
Actually no, the term originated with the romans meaning country dweller, and was then used by the romans to refer to those who clung to country religions, and later still those who did not follow the official Roman religion (which included the Christians until about 300 CE)

[Shven]

I’m a religious pagan theist. A literal polytheist, believing the Gods are real and not archetypes, metaphors. Believer in the efficacy of magic and in the reality of life after death. This is my favorite quote, from Raven Kaldera:
I quite like Raven Kaldera, and can agree with that quote. I dislike this whole archetypes thing

But just cos I believe in the Gods doesn't mean I go around worshipping them ;)

[Sturmrabe]

[quote]
Wicca dates from the late 1940s, beginning with the work of Gerald Gardner, a British civil servant. Other branches of neopaganism have various dates in the 20th century, such as �satrú (Norse paganism) from the 1970s.
[/qoute]

there is something I've been noticing on a few threads I have read:

Asatru is in no way neo-anything or revisionist!

it has been an unbroken chain both underground and not so underground in Iceland and other nordic countries that were "brought into the fold" of Xianity much later in the game...

whereas Wicca is a polyglot of european mystical beliefs, Asatru is very specific and not ment to be mingled...

if you beleive in things like white/black magik, you know that if you mingle the devotions and symbols of one religion with the rituals and sabbats (blots etc) of anouther there is no telling what powers you will get the attentions of (some rather malignant)

I have always found anything published by Llewelyn books to be insipid and historically inarcurate, that is the problem when you make up a religion in the 40's to suit your needs without respect for traditions (re: the attempt to integrate runes into witchcraft)

having met (and dated a couple) of "Witches" i beleive if you want to be something, BE SOMETHING, not just an amalgamation of snippets of several belief systems

while the idea of "wicca" is ok for a paganism "primer" one must evolve beyond a pre-packaged neo-pop culture

[truthie]

Asatru is in no way neo-anything or revisionist!
;)

I have always found anything published by Llewelyn books to be insipid and historically inarcurate, that is the problem when you make up a religion in the 40's to suit your needs without respect for traditions (re: the attempt to integrate runes into witchcraft)

True, too true. :notworthy

having met (and dated a couple) of "Witches" i beleive if you want to be something, BE SOMETHING, not just an amalgamation of snippets of several belief systems

while the idea of "wicca" is ok for a paganism "primer" one must evolve beyond a pre-packaged neo-pop culture

:notworthy

As far as my knowledge goes, Asatru is not even a Neopagan religion, it is Heathen.

Anyway, it is Reconstructionism and if there is a single band that I respect slightly under neopaganism/heathenry, it is the Recon religions for being more akin to academics, serious, truthful, no self-promotion, not promising miracles in order to gain more converts. As well, recons seem to the ones who do their homework. :)

T.

[Sturmrabe]

:cool: now you've gone and made me blush!

the main differance between reclaimists and revisionists, is reclaimists are trying to strip away the taint of Xian stigma. the lies and half-truths that are attempts to dehumanize non-Xians, generally with the perpose of persecution

reclaimists are trying to revive dead religions, or remake them, that have no direct chain to the present, generally with little or no records or details than a few scribbels on some pottery, or a passing refferance from anouther culture

yes, we are Heathens, and damn proud of it...

but there are certain things we have to fight against even among ourselves... actually on that note i'll start a new thread