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Dear iidb: Guy babbling about Christ, evolution, and the big bang.

Apologies southern,

I did notice. I just didn't get around to it.
I have a slight different take to hell than you would expect. (I apologise to WAB too, he asked similar questions a while back). I have meant to rigorously study a bit more to find and better explain with indications from written passages The delay was simply: having the intention to give a decent reply, to courteously respond properly, which yours (and others) posts deserve... without the usual doing rushed posts when popping -in-and-out.
(I have shifting schedules, I'm on one now.)
Back in hour or two.


 
The parameter here then is what we know so far of the vast universe within our human comprehension. Ok, no probs I got it.
Moreover, it is the fundamental assumption that any system of "knowledge" or "understanding" makes.

It is one of the fundamental assumptions behind the vastly accurate modeling of our universe by physicists.

Abandoning this is the very abandonment of the idea of truth.
Ok. I'm taking note of the part in bold as a clarification reference.

Reading it as: "The biblical God is not possible - because this is derived from the fundamental assumptions as logical references, modelled on the universe by physicists."
Apologies, I just need to understand: when you say 'modelling on reality', are we establishing the grounds that an existence of God could only exist and 'not be a contradiction'....only if God was "predictably calculable" like you would , when measuring everyday natural physical events?
No, I am making a much stronger and 'harder' argument: that no "existence" of "God" is possible under any logic capable of understanding truth as consistently separate from falseness.
God (big G, Ein Sof) is impossible, cannot exist, could not ever exist, does not exist, will not exist.

This does NOT speak to 'petty little gods', creators of stimulations.

Its not a matter of whether it is "predictably calculable". I wager that out universe is only "calculable moment by moment from a given frame" rather than "predictably calculable": it's something whose evolution can only be observed through evolving a suitable model of the system step by step.
I am saying that logically speaking, "the set of all sets", which is what you would consider God, has been logically ruled out as an idea worth holding on to.
I think Russell's Paradox could be a mistake (by him) if it's applied as an argument to the biblical God.

For example: The Set of all sets fits nicely the description of Pantheism i.e.that says ALL things, the cosmos, the earth etc and etc. is ONE physical entity.

The God of the bible is not seen that way according to the theology.. God is understood to be a separate entity, distinct rom the universe, a spirit not physical...distinct from his creation which therefore is saying:

The God of the bible can not be a Set of sets! In this regard Russel's Paradox is not the right argument imo.
Learner, perhaps you never read my previous post. So, I'll ask you again. Are you a Christian who believes that anyone who doesn't believe in the same version of god that you do is going to spend eternity being tortured in hell?
Hi southernhybrid,

To be honest I am not sure if its quite like that. I have mentioned before on one of the threads, perhaps two or three years ago that I thought people were punished according to their sin, ranging from trivial sin (stealing apples) to extreme evil (obsessions to rape & murder etc.). Basically, if there was a one-fits-all punishment, then that wouldn't make sense, contradicting being punished according to the level of sin!

I'm just giving you a quick outline of my thoughts on hell because I haven't had time to put together the verses that indicate an alternative view, which to some degree is still similar to the convention but not so much. There are others out there who are scrutinizing the texts who could explain much better, and will have some disagreements with other hell-conventionalist theists.

Obviously there is that confliction that outsiders (non believers) bring up the combination of a 'Loving God' and an 'everlasting hell' where people are condemned for etenity. To be honest : I was never certain of the context. For example: even Hell and death are thrown in the Lake of Fire. Does hell and death and people Burn forever?
Or...
.....does it make more sense if the context is actually saying Burned up forever? Exist no more.


I've just found some verses for now:
  • Malachi 4:1 — "The day is coming that will burn like a furnace; all the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble..."
  • 2 Peter 3:7 — "But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
  • 2 Peter 3:10 — "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief... and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be burned up."
  • Revelation 20:9–10 — Nations surround the camp of the saints; fire comes down from heaven and devours them; the devil is thrown into the lake of fire.
  • Revelation 20:14–15 — Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire; anyone whose name isn't in the book of life is thrown in.
Book of life as opposed to death. No life...dead!
Evangelicals believe that, including the ones who raised me although my mom finally told my husband that I was too good of a person to go to hell. Does the all loving god that you believe in send people to a hellish eternity or are you a more liberal type of Christians who cherry picks the sweeter cherries in the Bible and throws out the bitter ones? You can answer yes or no or go into detail if you like. Since you are still here after all this time, I've just wondered if you're a Biblical literalist or not. Thanks for your time.

I am literalist but I believe the issues are more about word meaning and contextual interpretations: Literally Jesus was portrayed so loving , God created man, Jesus was ressurected etc & etc...our sins are forgivable.

Thousands of theists are studying and scrutinizing, and it will be a combined universal effort that contributes to the understanding. A working progress as I use Daniel 12.4 who didn't understand the prophesy that came to him of the future, where God replied:

Daniel 12:4
“But you, Daniel, keep this message a secret. You must close the book and keep this secret until the time of the end (last days) Many people will go here and there looking for true knowledge, and the true knowledge will increase.”

I'm sorry its another post in haste. I have a family meet. Thanks for the discussion.
 
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@ Learner. Thanks for replying. It sounds to me as if you don't know what you believe when it comes to some of the Christian views of an afterlife.

One of my sisters never left Christianity and I often think she has no idea what version she believes. She told me many years ago that she's not sure I'm going to hell. Our stupid childhood religion did so much damage to her but she doesn't even realize it. Anyway, she and I try to avoid discussions of religion now and that works. I guess whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to pull others into your boat, works for me.
 
@ Learner. Thanks for replying. It sounds to me as if you don't know what you believe when it comes to some of the Christian views of an afterlife.

One of my sisters never left Christianity and I often think she has no idea what version she believes. She told me many years ago that she's not sure I'm going to hell. Our stupid childhood religion did so much damage to her but she doesn't even realize it. Anyway, she and I try to avoid discussions of religion now and that works. I guess whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to pull others into your boat, works for me.

I think you are right, theree is no comprehension.

They respond with a barrage of biblical quotes probably learned from others.
 
@ Learner. Thanks for replying. It sounds to me as if you don't know what you believe when it comes to some of the Christian views of an afterlife.

One of my sisters never left Christianity and I often think she has no idea what version she believes. She told me many years ago that she's not sure I'm going to hell. Our stupid childhood religion did so much damage to her but she doesn't even realize it. Anyway, she and I try to avoid discussions of religion now and that works. I guess whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to pull others into your boat, works for me.

I think you are right, theree is no comprehension.

They respond with a barrage of biblical quotes probably learned from others.
We all learn things from others.
 
@ Learner. Thanks for replying. It sounds to me as if you don't know what you believe when it comes to some of the Christian views of an afterlife.

One of my sisters never left Christianity and I often think she has no idea what version she believes. She told me many years ago that she's not sure I'm going to hell. Our stupid childhood religion did so much damage to her but she doesn't even realize it. Anyway, she and I try to avoid discussions of religion now and that works. I guess whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to pull others into your boat, works for me.

I think you are right, theree is no comprehension.

They respond with a barrage of biblical quotes probably learned from others.
We all learn things from others.

Sure. And many (most?) of the things we “learn” are total BS.
 
@ Learner. Thanks for replying. It sounds to me as if you don't know what you believe when it comes to some of the Christian views of an afterlife.
So far, I don't take to the version of hell described in your previous post.That description puts lots of people off into confusion... oddly, a little like an intended effect that makes an argument at least for you.

It is just like the distorted version which humans believed and used to illustrate centuries ago, as today in films (and even in comedic scenes)depicting satan sometimes painted "all red with horns on his head and a tail,whereby.he and his demons are torturing people in hell" etc.& etc.. It's not biblical.


Woe betide those who depict him as grotesque, he will have an issue with the illustrators, being that he is described to be most beautiful. 😶

Anyway ...regarding the afterlife, the bit about heaven - (most, if not all) believe the same version of afterlife and heaven.

One of my sisters never left Christianity and I often think she has no idea what version she believes. She told me many years ago that she's not sure I'm going to hell.
Becoming a believer even knowing little about the scriptures,or version,..the angels rejoice as the scripture says. That's all that matters!

The thief that was crucified next to Jesus, only needed to believe in Jesus I don't think he knew much.

Our stupid childhood religion did so much damage to her but she doesn't even realize it. Anyway, she and I try to avoid discussions of religion now and that works. I guess whatever floats your boat, as long as you don't try to pull others into your boat, works for me.
Communities or societies when run by the wrong sort, ,often do things that damages people.
 
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Puuting the supernatural of the gospels aside, what makes sense is a Jesus not talking about an afterlife, but talking about a community here on Earth.


Salvation being a state of mental health and feeling good, hell is being dragged from that state of well being by corrupting factors into an unhappy, painful unhealthy existence.

Redemption and salvation are not exclusively a religious theme.

Corrupting factors like drugs, alcohol, greed, sex addiction and so on.

Look at Trump. In terms of money and power and fame he has had it all, yet he appears to have a big empty hole. No joy or happiness. Only greed.


Starting in the 60s a long string of tragic pop culture figures. Joplin and Hendrix. Miles Davis. Kurt Cobain blew his head off with a shotgun.

Mathew Perry more recently.

Despite wealth and fame they end up in a hell for lack of a better word.

To me Christianity can be an obsession and an addiction.

As to Christians, heaven, and hell it is all a matter of interpretation and imagination.

I believe one of he differences between Sadducee and Pharisee is a belief in an afterlife. Jews themselves were not monolithic.
 
Well,
Puuting the supernatural of the gospels aside, what makes sense is a Jesus not talking about an afterlife, but talking about a community here on Earth.
I would broadly agree, however the original Christians seemed quite interested in concepts of life as goes on after we die, and how we are somehow retained in the fabric of our existence as a loose collection of parts tumbling about as "the holy Spirit".
Salvation being a state of mental health and feeling good, hell is being dragged from that state of well being by corrupting factors into an unhappy, painful unhealthy existence.
I would also argue this. Here, heaven is an inevitability for your own existence through time as those loose parts rattling around occasionally rattle together in a reprise of the earlier instance.

Here, heaven is maintaining the state of things so, assuming this rebirth is even a thing you would allow, the next iteration of you rattles together in an environment that is less awful and terrifying and cold.
 
To be honest I am not sure if its quite like that. I have mentioned before on one of the threads, perhaps two or three years ago that I thought people were punished according to their sin, ranging from trivial sin (stealing apples) to extreme evil (obsessions to rape & murder etc.).
Learner - if people are to be punished for their sin, why wait? Why not punish them when they commit the sin, not at some nebulous future occasion. Also, don't you think that if divine punishment was immediate, that would have a great deterrent effect?
 
briefly responding in no particular order.

...And if Jesus wanted the world to know about the conversation between him and his Father...
...he would just gather the disciples, and the crowd and just preach to them.

🙄
Would he? Was he a hypocrite?

Jesus said:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
 
To be honest I am not sure if its quite like that. I have mentioned before on one of the threads, perhaps two or three years ago that I thought people were punished according to their sin, ranging from trivial sin (stealing apples) to extreme evil (obsessions to rape & murder etc.).
Learner - if people are to be punished for their sin, why wait? Why not punish them when they commit the sin, not at some nebulous future occasion.
That sort of used to be the case, before Jesus arrived who 'came for the sinners'.

Besides, there's another perspective side to your above which I often say in answer to the rhetoric when people say: "Judgement day still hasn't happened" and "we are still waiting for thousands of years later etc & etc..

Basically... Sins that are to be judged and dealt with, happens soon after you die!

The perspective here is:
No one is actually waiting thousands of years for that day! This can be conceptually a misleading idea, that illustrates a false conceptual understanding!

So, when each of us dies, then it's judgement. You see...we don't count or notice the years we are dead, because we aren't 'consciously' aware of it.

We are asleep until we are woken. As far as we are consciously aware. We just close our eyes at death... and then seemingly we instantly open them again on judgement day.

Lots of our sins are dealt with by a wide variety of earthly consequences. ..
...but no one waits more than the life they are able to live on earth, waking up on judgement day.

Example: A guy that died 100 years ago is still unconscious but he will wake up with everyone else on that particular day. So...to him, he is only aware that just a moment ago he was on his death bed just before he woke up.

Jesus said 'the time is at hand.'

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Also, don't you think that if divine punishment was immediate, that would have a great deterrent effect?
The Israelites didn't always take heed to derents. They were punished severely when they turned their backs on God by committing to foreign practices (human/baby sacrifices) worshipping other gods.
 
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briefly responding in no particular order.

...And if Jesus wanted the world to know about the conversation between him and his Father...
...he would just gather the disciples, and the crowd and just preach to them.

🙄
Would he? Was he a hypocrite?
He would...

...and he wasn't a hypocrite because the quote below is speaking about sinful boasting and pride.
Jesus said:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
 
What I don't get is why people of most religions get so hung up on belief. What the fuck does it matter what one believes, as long as they are a good person or at least try hard to be a good person. By that I mean, don't harm other people, treat others as equals, be as generous as you are able, things like that.

Why do so many religious people think that those who have different beliefs are going to spend eternity or part of eternity in a very unpleasant afterlife? Actually, the concept of an afterlife is insane to me, but I do realize it brings a lot of people comfort to think they will be reunited with their loved ones and pets after they die. There is no evidence of that, other than what religious myths or as my son refers to them, fairy tales claim. People have delusions, hallucinations and desires, but that doesn't make them true.

Plus there's perception. Some people think that the current president is a great person, but those of us with working brains know he's a very sick man with symptoms of psychopathy etc. Since I'm skeptical that we have free will or at least much free will, even the most evil person for lack of a better word, can't help who they are. The way I usually put it is that we are all victims or benefactors of our genetic and environmental influences. If you're born with damage to the frontal cortex, you might have psychopathic tendencies. If you're born with a healthy brain and body and raised by caring, loving parents who teach you good morals, you will likely be a good person.

And what is this obsession that Christians have with sin? Nobody is perfect, but not being perfect doesn't make one a "sinner". People make mistakes, especially when they are young. Most people are not sinners to use the stupid religious word.

People can be influenced by others both positive and negative. If you're a poor young boy who grows. up in a rough, poverty stricken neighborhood full of gangs, and your mom is single, working hard to provide for you, you might become another gang member. On the other hand, your mom and some other family members might have the time to show you some love and teach you how to be a better person. People with mental illnesses are usually harmless, but not always. Someone might hear voices in heir heads telling them to hurt someone else etc. I had a patient who went into a rage if we didn't address her as Queen. She suffered from a serious mental illness, that gave her serious delusions. if we humored her, she was harmless. Some stupid people think that people like her are "demon possessed" WTF. These people suffer from brain disorders. Christianity doesn't even mention that in their old book that comes in a variety of versions and translations. Which one does a Christian choose to follow?

My ex is a fanatical Baha'i, supposedly the newest of the progressive religions, but Baha'is think it's wrong to be gay. I don't know how they explain that, but since the religion started in Iran, formerly known as Persia around the mid 1850s, it's no surprise that they were homophobic. Bahai's don't believe in hell, but they do believe all need to convert to their religion to bring peace to the world. Yeah, Right!

Religion is nuts! Still, if you need it fine, just don't force it on others, especially not in government. We know how well that goes.

ok. I apologize for the rant. Sometimes these discussions just get to me and make me want to scream. :eek: I don't hate those who need religion. I just don't understand that need much after being raised by evangelical Christians and married to a Baha'i, who was emotionally abusive for nine years, It seems to me that generally speaking, religion does much more harm than good with few exceptions.

@Learner. Would you please tell the street preachers in my town that Jesus doesn't approve.
 
And what is this obsession that Christians have with sin? Nobody is perfect, but not being perfect doesn't make one a "sinner". People make mistakes, especially when they are young. Most people are not sinners to use the stupid religious word.
The really shrill, over-zealous Xtians I've met will tell you that your human nature is base and evil and that, by default, you deserve hell unless you share their beliefs. That immediately begs the question of who exactly, in their thinking, created human nature. But it also makes me wonder how deep that conviction goes. If their grandmother is not Christian, or not their brand of Christian, do they really think she should be cast into the Bible's lake of fire or burned with the chaff? I will never forget seeing Bob Jones Jr. doing a TV interview back in the 80s (probably around the time his uni was in the news for banning interracial dating.) He described human nature without God's grace as "green slime from hell." What a depraved statement. What an utterly nuts, hate-filled statement... and he would have said it was love talk. Can you imagine these Christians going around with their 32-teeth smiles, thinking that everyone who doesn't measure up to their formula of correct belief will be damned eternally, suffering with no hope of achieving, say, rehabilitation through suffering?
Just as crazy: the teaching that thinking a bad thought is the equivalent of doing a bad deed.
 
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And what is this obsession that Christians have with sin? Nobody is perfect, but not being perfect doesn't make one a "sinner". People make mistakes, especially when they are young. Most people are not sinners to use the stupid religious word.
The really shrill, over-zealous Xtians I've met will tell you that your human nature is base and evil and that, by default, you deserve hell unless you share their beliefs. That immediately begs the question of who exactly, in their thinking, created human nature. But it also makes me wonder how deep that conviction goes. If their grandmother is not Christian, or not their brand of Christian, do they really think she should be cast into the Bible's lake of fire or burned with the chaff?
My parents were evangelicals and my mom used to try to "save" my grandfather, who was a Catholic of sorts. He used to say to her, "Don't worry Marie, me and the devil will have a good time together in hell. I was told to witness to my Catholic friends or they would go to hell. Most of my friends were Catholic when I was a child. My mom finally decided I was too good a person to go to hell, and I think she no longer thought that Catholics were all going to hell. So stupid and cruel.

I will never forget seeing Bob Jones Jr. doing a TV interview back in the 80s (probably around the time his uni was in the news for banning interracial dating.) He described human nature without God's grace as "green slime from hell." What a depraved statement. What an utterly nuts, hate-filled statement... and he would have said it was love talk.
Oddly enough I met my atheist husband about a mile from Bob Jones U or as I call it BJU. I took two student nurses out with me to make home visits and one was from Greece. She told me that her mom wanted her to attend BJU because she would be safe. I am well aware of that nasty, stupid Bob Jones. It also reminds me of my nice neighbors who are a mixed race couple. She told me that her mom tried to use the Bible to get her not to marry her sweet, loving husband who is also a veteran who won a Purple Heart and suffers from combat related PTSD. Her former pastor told her that the Bible doesn't object to mixed race marriages. My neighbor, at least the female is still a Christian but she has a nice, loving interpretation of Jesus, and she has no problem with me being an atheist. There are so many versions of the fairly tales.

Can you imagine these Christians going around with their 32-teeth smiles, thinking that everyone who doesn't measure up to their formula of correct belief will be damned eternally, suffering with no hope of achieving, say, rehabilitation through suffering?
Just as crazy: the teaching that thinking a bad thought is the equivalent of doing a bad deed.
Yeah, that is stupid. Even Jimmy Carter who at one time was a member of the Southern Baptist sect said that he had lusted in his heart but he would never actually cheat on his wife. Today I told a close black Christian friend that I wish Trump would die and she gave me a stare as if I had said something terrible, although she despises that man herself. I told her that he has indirectly killed so many people via his policies/war etc, as well as committed so many crimes that wishing he would die would be a "blessing" for the rest of us. She's not even a conservative Christian, so her response surprised me. Church services can make people feel guilty I guess. At least that's what they try to do.
 
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