Hope For The Dying

[Loren Pechtel]

I hate to admit it, really it isn't something that should be funny but I giggle anyway when I think about it. I think about all the parents and grandparents who abused their kids and grandkids being scared of this assisted suicide stuff being "abused" and forced on them.

I wonder if there is actually a relationship--those that are afraid of it are that way because of what they did to their kids.

 

[BH]

I would not be surprised if that were the case Loren.

 

[TomC]

I would not be surprised if that were the case Loren.

I don't doubt that exists.
I'm much more concerned about the possibility of abuse. A person who is elderly and terminally ill might be surrounded by caring people.
But they might have people who have a vested interest in their death being sooner rather than later. Impatient heirs, insurance companies, there could well be plenty of folks who want Grandma to kick the bucket as soon as possible.
Tom

 

[DBT]

Love abounds.

 

[southernhybrid]

I would not be surprised if that were the case Loren.

I don't doubt that exists.
I'm much more concerned about the possibility of abuse. A person who is elderly and terminally ill might be surrounded by caring people.
But they might have people who have a vested interest in their death being sooner rather than later. Impatient heirs, insurance companies, there could well be plenty of folks who want Grandma to kick the bucket as soon as possible.
Tom

In the states in the US that have made assisted suicide legal, Grandma would have to be in her right mind and have at least one or in some cases more than one physician certify that she has no more than 6 months to live. I think it would be difficult to abuse these regulations, and I've had so many frail elderly patients in the past who told me they were ready to go and life no longer held any purpose for them. There are countries where euthanasia is far less regulated, but I'm not aware of whether or not these laws have caused any abuse.

Sometimes I think my sister hoped that our mom would die, but she was 97, had late stage dementia and was living in a nursing home, so she didn't have much quality of life, despite, imo, the nursing home was a good one. My sister would never have done anything to purposely help our mother die, despite knowing that our mom used to tell me that she never wanted to live so long. I would never have done anything to hurt her either. I still enjoyed doing FaceTime with her, despite knowing she wouldn't remember our conversations for more than a minute or two, if that, but she knew who I was right up to the end, when she got Covid and died shortly after recovering from it. Children aren't the ones who. have the power to choose euthanasia for a parent, so I don't see that happening, at least not under the current laws.

Based on my many years as a home health nurse, especially in the late 70s and 80s, I found giving aggressive end of life care to frail older adults who were often confused, including feeding tubes and in some cases respirators, to be far more abusive than allowing an older adult with a terminal medical condition to be eased out gently if that is their choice. We do it for our pets, who most of us think of as family members, why do we deny it to our human family members when they are endlessly suffering? That's just my opinion. I don't want to fight about it. It's just that I saw so much end of life suffering when I worked as a professional nurse.

 

[bilby]

The idea that legalised suicide will lead to significant numbers of murders is Roman Catholic Church propaganda.

People who want to murder elderly relatives already do so.

Those who don't, won't start doing so because the law changes to make it happen, as long as you can persuade two doctors that the lucid patient (who is telling them otherwise) that it is what their patient really wants.

It's a standard RCC slippery slope fallacy, and it's obviously irrational - but like all good propaganda, contains an emotional hook.

 

[Lion IRC]

People who want to murder elderly relatives already do so.

...so let's help them by providing liberalized euthanasia laws - more leverage to apply to elderly, sick relatives whose health care costs are burning up the inheritance.

 

[bilby]

People who want to murder elderly relatives already do so.

Yes. Because it's not particularly difficult to do, and murderous psychopaths aren't known for being put off by mere laws.

...so let's help them by providing liberalized euthanasia laws - more leverage to apply to elderly, sick relatives whose health care costs are burning up the inheritance.

How does that help them? Liberalized euthanasia laws or not, secretly giving granny an overdose, or smothering her with a pillow, is STILL murder; And STILL easier than getting a couple of independent medical experts to conspire in a needlessly complex murder plot.

And of course you are ignoring the benefits of reduced suffering.

Although I wouldn't be shocked to hear that you think suffering is good, noble, and right. Because your ethics are mostly derived from the depraved and immoral teachings of a bunch of religious totalitarian kooks.

 

[pood]

Although I wouldn't be shocked to hear that you think suffering is good, noble, and right. Because your ethics are mostly derived from the depraved and immoral teachings of a bunch of religious totalitarian kooks.

That was the gist of Dostoevsky’s novel Crime and Punishment, that suffering redemptive. However, I still love Dostoevsky.

 

[DBT]

People who want to murder elderly relatives already do so.

...so let's help them by providing liberalized euthanasia laws - more leverage to apply to elderly, sick relatives whose health care costs are burning up the inheritance.

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

 

[Lion IRC]

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.

 

[DBT]

Why say 'fast track?' There are conditions that do cause tremendous suffering and utterly destroy quality of life. If we do it for our pets as an act of mercy, with checks and balances to stop those who would use euthanasia for personal gain, why not us?

 

[bilby]

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Not always. And it's for THEM to judge, not you or I.

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.

Nobody but you is suggesting that they are.

You are the one in this thread who is genuinely expecting voluntary euthanasia to be abused. Nobody else thinks of terminally ill sufferers of constant pain as plausible murder victims.

 

[southernhybrid]

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.

No, there aren't always way to alleviate pain and suffering. I know because I cared for and advocated for them for many years prior to retirement. Euthanasia isn't legal in my state but the 97 year old man, who I visited many times while working part time in home health is an example. Whenever I pulled into his driveway, I could hear him screaming, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy. Please take me now. Please take me now." His God apparently didn't hear his plea. I'm sure I mentioned this case earlier in this thread or somewhere else. I felt so bad for him that it was sometimes hard to get out of my car and do the best I could to help his family provide care and cope. I doubt you have a background in a medical profession or you would know better than to claim there are ways to relieve all pain and suffering. Sure, doctors and nurses try, but pain meds stop working after one builds up a tolerance. AT least it appears that we have less aggressive end of life care now, compared to when I was young.

I have helped get a few people out of abusive homes, but sometimes the person refuses to leave, and if they are in their right minds, they have the right to remain in the home, even if they realize that their families consider them a burden. In an ideal world, this wouldn't be an issue, but we don't live in such a world. Our nursing homes in the US have been taken over by large corporations. Most are under staffed and the residents are often neglected and sometimes abused. I would strongly prefer to be eased out of life than be forced to live in such a place. Most children don't want or are unable to care for their frail relatives these days. Plus, a lot of people don't even have children.

A few months ago, I had to have a dog, who I loved like a family member, gently euthanized, after the vet was able to temporarily relieve her severe nausea and vomiting. She had a huge tumor over her liver that couldn't be treated. I was heartbroken, but knew that letting her go was the kindest thing to do. I watched the vet very gently ease her out of life without any distress. I thought to myself that I'd love to go that way if and when I reach the point where I am terminally ill or experiencing pain and suffering that can't be relieved. Why do we deny humans the compassionate euthanasia that we give to the pets that we love and cherish?

 

[Lion IRC]

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.

I doubt you have a background in a medical profession or you would know better than to claim there are ways to relieve all pain and suffering.

I didnt claim that.
I said "There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death."

Why do we deny humans the compassionate euthanasia that we give to the pets that we love and cherish?

Feel free to compare humans to animals if you must.
As for me, I don't think taking the life of a human is on par with taking the life of an animal.

 

[southernhybrid]

Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.

Of course they shouldn't be made to feel as if they are a burden. I cared for them for years and gave them support and advocacy. I'm now an older adult myself.

I doubt you have a background in a medical profession or you would know better than to claim there are ways to relieve all pain and suffering.

I didnt claim that.
I said "There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death."

Please explain the compassionate way to alleviate pain. I suffer from chronic pain and the pain meds give me little relief. I'm hoping once my post op pain due to recent knee replacement surgery decreases, it will make my quality of life better, as I can usually tolerate my other arthritic pain. But, my late father suffered from Complex regional pain syndrome for the last 20 years of his life. Nothing relieved his pain, including his prayers and Christian beliefs. He was fortunate to have my mother do her best to try and care for him, although she frequently vented to me about how difficult he could be. He never said he wanted to die, so even at the end of his life, he would never have chosen euthanasia, if it had been offered to him. He died shortly after being diagnosed with cancer.

Why do we deny humans the compassionate euthanasia that we give to the pets that we love and cherish?

Feel free to compare humans to animals if you must.
As for me, I don't think taking the life of a human is on par with taking the life of an animal.

We are animals. What makes you think we aren't? Are we plants?/s We evolved from the great apes. All you have to do is read some books on primatology to see all the things we have in common with them, instead of getting the idea from an ancient book of mythology that we are somehow special. We are the species that has almost destroyed our own habitat along with countless numbers of other animals species. There is nothing special about us. Our big brains have caused far more havoc than any other animal species, but I'm off topic now, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Rhea]

I doubt you have a background in a medical profession or you would know better than to claim there are ways to relieve all pain and suffering.

I didnt claim that.
I said "There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death."

Why do we deny humans the compassionate euthanasia that we give to the pets that we love and cherish?

Feel free to compare humans to animals if you must.
As for me, I don't think taking the life of a human is on par with taking the life of an animal.

Lion, can you please clarify which of the following you are espousing, or offer a different synopsis is these are not accurate?

1. I think choosing a medicated death (assisted suicide) is wrong and I would never want to do it and I would vigorously advocate for safeguards to make sure it is never applied to people who feel like me. But if someone else wants it because they cannot or do not want to live through the progression of their disease, they should have that option.
2. I think choosing a medicated death (assisted suicide) is wrong and I would never want to do it and I would vigorously deny any other person the right, ability or path to choose it for themselves.

 

[Janice Rael]

Hope is a Bullshit Brain Bargain - Janice Rael 3/5/2024


Hope is a bullshit brain bargain


Don't lie to my face again


Don't tell me why to pretend


That hope isn't a lie, or I'm just not trying


Go tell a different disabled person


Go tell someone who's insane


Go tell a person in addiction


Go tell a homeless veteran


Go tell a Palestinian


Go tell an African


Go tell a woman


Go tell someone with darker skin


Go tell little r@ped children


Go tell it on the mountain


Go ahead, go tell them


About the bullshit hope you're selling


Call it Heaven, call it Reason


Go tell them what you're doing


The nonprofits and churches to which you're donating


The wages you're not quite lifting


The color of cotton candy you spin


Go give a tiny taste to them


Go on about folks mattering


The hope and change, keep on hoping


Don't stop believing


After hope works out for them


Tell me what to hope for, then


I'm waiting, I'm waiting


But not hoping


Ever again


Hope is a bullshit brain bargain


# original poem

Hey IIDB, why would a dying person need or want hope? That's a cringeworthy concept. They're dying. Hope won't change their circumstance. Hope is a bullshit brain bargain.

Apologies to the folks, for my

ish or whatever

poems and songs, sure

 

[TomC]

Like I told Toni,
Hold on to your hats.

Wheeee...
Tom

 

[Janice Rael]

Like I told Toni,
Hold on to your hats.

Wheeee...
Tom

oh, nah.

I don't need to make you whee.


I'm out.