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Hope For The Dying

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.
How do you know that the vast majority of terminally ill elderly, who are pro-euthanasia, think of themselves as a burden? Seems rather judgmental.
 
Hope is a Bullshit Brain Bargain - Janice Rael 3/5/2024


Hope is a bullshit brain bargain


Don't lie to my face again


Don't tell me why to pretend


That hope isn't a lie, or I'm just not trying


Go tell a different disabled person


Go tell someone who's insane


Go tell a person in addiction


Go tell a homeless veteran


Go tell a Palestinian


Go tell an African


Go tell a woman


Go tell someone with darker skin


Go tell little r@ped children


Go tell it on the mountain


Go ahead, go tell them


About the bullshit hope you're selling


Call it Heaven, call it Reason


Go tell them what you're doing


The nonprofits and churches to which you're donating


The wages you're not quite lifting


The color of cotton candy you spin


Go give a tiny taste to them


Go on about folks mattering


The hope and change, keep on hoping


Don't stop believing


After hope works out for them


Tell me what to hope for, then


I'm waiting, I'm waiting


But not hoping


Ever again


Hope is a bullshit brain bargain


# original poem

Hey IIDB, why would a dying person need or want hope? That's a cringeworthy concept. They're dying. Hope won't change their circumstance. Hope is a bullshit brain bargain.

Apologies to the folks, for my

ish or whatever

poems and songs, sure
The best a dying person can "hope" for is a peaceful death and. a good hospice nurse. I've watched one very peaceful death, but the woman had late state Alzheimer's so she had no idea she way dying. She was dehydrated and few people understand that pushing fluids on a dying person makes the dying process worse, as fluid fills up in their lungs, making them short of breath and miserable. Atropine and morphine help but dehydration does a better job.

Don't give me fluids on my death bed

Let me go peacefully

Let my body gently close down

Instead of letting me drown

The heart will eventually stop

With or without an extra drop

Of artificial hydration

Just let me go like nature intended

And if I'm suffering too much

Give me the drug to ease me out

We do it for our beloved pets and

If they knew they'd be thankful

For the merciful way that we treat them

At the end of their too short lives

( Okay, not great poetry, but what does one expect from a poem made up in two minutes? )
 
We are animals. What makes you think we aren't? Are we plants?/s We evolved from the great apes.

Actually, we ARE Great Apes, but otherwise your post was perfect.

I know, though, Lion thinks we aren’t really animals because we have a “soul,” whatever the hell that is, and only we can go to “heaven,” whatever the hell that is. I guess because we’re so blessed we deserve to be condemned to keep on living even while in great and untreatable pain? The Christian mentality is unfathomable to me.
 
We are the species that has almost destroyed our own habitat along with countless numbers of other animals species.
To be fair, even in this regard we aren't even close to being as effective at destroying our habitat as the cyanobacteria.

As you correctly note:
There is nothing special about us.
 
Pain and suffering is not a consideration?

Of course it is.
The question is about our response.
There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death. (Or making a person think that's the best outcome for all concerned )

Elderly, vulnerable terminally ill people should not have to have their suffering exacerbated by the stress of thinking they are a burden.


I doubt you have a background in a medical profession or you would know better than to claim there are ways to relieve all pain and suffering.

I didnt claim that.
I said "There's compassionate ways to alleviate pain that don't involve fast-tracking a person's death."

Why do we deny humans the compassionate euthanasia that we give to the pets that we love and cherish?

Feel free to compare humans to animals if you must.
As for me, I don't think taking the life of a human is on par with taking the life of an animal.

What about those who want to die because their pain is too much to bear? Suicide is an option for some, but is hard on the family, carries a stigma, may be difficult to carry out, and can go badly.

Why should those in that position not be given the means of ending their suffering with dignity and without the stigma of suicide?
 
We are animals. What makes you think we aren't? Are we plants?/s We evolved from the great apes.

Actually, we ARE Great Apes, but otherwise your post was perfect.

I know, though, Lion thinks we aren’t really animals because we have a “soul,” whatever the hell that is, and only we can go to “heaven,” whatever the hell that is. I guess because we’re so blessed we deserve to be condemned to keep on living even while in great and untreatable pain? The Christian mentality is unfathomable to me.
If Christians actually believed that when people die they go to heaven, they would support people being given the choice to get to heaven faster. But they don't have real faith in their own belief system.
 
The rationale being, that by committing suicide you are rejecting God's gift of life. While to persevere in the face of all hardship till the end, you honor God's gift of life and are worthy of salvation and eternal life....
 
What about those who want to die because their pain is too much to bear?

I question whether they would still want to die if they had access to sufficient pain relief.

Suicide is an option for some, but is hard on the family, carries a stigma, may be difficult to carry out, and can go badly...

Why would anyone care about the supposed stigma? You can't make everyone approve of your personal end-of-life choices so why care if they think there's a stigma?

Expecting affirmations all round and agreement by everyone "...that it's the right thing to do" would (ironically) have the effect of stigmatizing the terminally ill person who DIDNT cooperate with "...what's best for everyone."

Why should those in that position not be given the means of ending their suffering with dignity and without the stigma of suicide?

They already have the means.

What they don't have is the unquestioning support of public policy makers and rightfully cautious voters when it comes to legalized homicide - whether partly or fully 'assisted'.
 
What about those who want to die because their pain is too much to bear?

I question whether they would still want to die if they had access to sufficient pain relief.

That's not for you or me to say. It's speculation.

Suicide is an option for some, but is hard on the family, carries a stigma, may be difficult to carry out, and can go badly...

Why would anyone care about the supposed stigma? You can't make everyone approve of your personal end-of-life choices so why care if they think there's a stigma?

Expecting affirmations all round and agreement by everyone "...that it's the right thing to do" would (ironically) have the effect of stigmatizing the terminally ill person who DIDNT cooperate with "...what's best for everyone."



For instance;

''When people believe myths like "suicide is a selfish act" or "only weak people attempt suicide," they may feel ashamed or judged for their thoughts or behaviours, which can stop them from reaching out for help. This can be especially dangerous because suicide is a serious issue and people who are struggling need to be able to access support without fear of judgement or stigma.''

“In my home, there was such a stigma against suicide and mental health, particularly because my parents came from different countries. They didn't even have a word for suicide or mental health, and they couldn't understand what it was.”

Why should those in that position not be given the means of ending their suffering with dignity and without the stigma of suicide?

They already have the means.

What they don't have is the unquestioning support of public policy makers and rightfully cautious voters when it comes to legalized homicide - whether partly or fully 'assisted'.

The first part of your remark is the point, but not that it's ''legalized homicide.'' It's assisted suicide with the aim of allowing the patient a dignified death.
 
We are animals. What makes you think we aren't? Are we plants?/s We evolved from the great apes.

Actually, we ARE Great Apes, but otherwise your post was perfect.

I know, though, Lion thinks we aren’t really animals because we have a “soul,” whatever the hell that is, and only we can go to “heaven,” whatever the hell that is. I guess because we’re so blessed we deserve to be condemned to keep on living even while in great and untreatable pain? The Christian mentality is unfathomable to me.
Yes. We are great apes, sometimes known as the third Chimpanzee. I've always wished we were more like bonobos than chimps, not that I have anything against Chimps. It's just that the matriarchal bonobos are peace loving, who are never violent except when a male tries to get to attack someone. Instead of using violence, they use sex and affection when they meet up with a different tribe of bonobos. Of course, we aren't that much like bonobos. Chimps are warriors, which unfortunately rubbed off on us. Remember the shock she experienced, when Jane Goodall realized that chimps could be territorial warriors?

I learned a lot about bonobos from the late Frans de Waal, who studied bonobos for decades and wrote about them in many of his books. I didn't mean to imply that we aren't also apes. We are just a different ape species, sadly the worst, most destructive ones as a species. Religion tries to make it seem like we are special, above the other animals and the world was created just for us. At least that's the Christian version of things, or so I was told as a child. Religion is one of or perhaps the greatest cause of war and hatred.
What about those who want to die because their pain is too much to bear?

I question whether they would still want to die if they had access to sufficient pain relief.

How many times do I have to tell you that there is no such thing as sufficient pain relief! We build up a tolerance to narcotic pain relievers over time, and then they are close to worthless. There is also a condition, which develops in some people, where the more pain relievers one takes, the more pain one has. Scientists are working on new ways to control pain, but we're probably far from that being successfully developed.

And, suffering isn't always about pain. It can be about total dependence. I've cared for people who were paralyzed from the neck down and were obviously extremely depressed. They couldn't do a single thing for themselves, and they weren't even capable of committing suicide if they wanted to. Some of them die due to refusing food and fluids or from complications related to their condition. Some who have good partners might find some purpose for living, but that's not very common. There are older people with bed sores, who can't even turn themselves in bed and lack decent care takers, since our nursing homes are often more like prisons, that are short of staff or burned out staff, due to being overworked. I would not deny these people the right to die, if that was what they wanted. It should never be forced on anyone but I've had so many former patients tell me they were ready to go, or they wanted to die, that I know it's not uncommon when one is nearing the end of life that no longer has any meaning or joy.

Surprisingly, my Catholic brother in law, who is a semi retired dentist, recently told me that he had a friend who promised to kill him if he was suffering and was not able to end his own life. His biggest concern was dementia. I'm not suggesting that's a good thing to do and I did wonder if he would do the same thing for his friend, but it's an example of how people are terrified of facing a life that is totally devoid of anything meaningful.
 
Lion, can you please clarify which of the following you are espousing, or offer a different synopsis is these are not accurate?

  1. I think choosing a medicated death (assisted suicide) is wrong and I would never want to do it and I would vigorously advocate for safeguards to make sure it is never applied to people who feel like me. But if someone else wants it because they cannot or do not want to live through the progression of their disease, they should have that option.
  2. I think choosing a medicated death (assisted suicide) is wrong and I would never want to do it and I would vigorously deny any other person the right, ability or path to choose it for themselves.

Some posters think they are clever to avoid the important discussions by proclaiming, “I won’t talk with that person!” And then be willing to make proclamations about how those to whom he will not listen must behave. But for the full measure of the discussion, it would be important for a person make clear if their position is “Because I don’t like it, you must not be allowed to do it!”

If Lion is unwilling to be clear about his position, we are left to make conclusions from his posted material.

In which case we must see a man, who has never been in health care, thinking he is qualified to contradict people who have spent their lives in health care; a man who will proclaim that the stated wishes of thousands of individuals should be questioned by his uninformed self:

I question whether they would still want to die if they had access to sufficient pain relief.

To the extent that he supports actual laws to prevent them from disagreeing with his non-expert, non-clinical, not-in-person blanket religion-infused assumption about their medical care.


It is truly difficult to imagine a more repugnant action than the person who wishes to insinuate himself and his religion between a person to whom he will not listen and their doctor.
 


It is truly difficult to imagine a more repugnant action than the person who wishes to insinuate himself and his religion between a person to whom he will not listen and their doctor.

Which is exactly what the anti-abortion crowd does.
 
I question whether they would still want to die if they had access to sufficient pain relief.
You really don't know much about this.
I am nothing resembling a medical person by training. But I spent a lot of time volunteering with dying AIDS patients back in the day. Oh yeah, sometimes people are in a horrible position with no hope for improvement or even effective pain relief and no reason to go on suffering.

I don't recall you responding to something I have said a couple of times.
If the goal of good parenting is to get your child to heaven and the innocent all go to heaven, then wouldn't abortion be the ideal child rearing method?
Tom
 
It is truly difficult to imagine a more repugnant action than the person who wishes to insinuate himself and his religion between a person to whom he will not listen and their doctor to whom he also refuses to listen.

Needed to edit…
 
It is truly difficult to imagine a more repugnant action than the person who wishes to insinuate himself and his religion between a person to whom he will not listen and their doctor to whom he also refuses to listen.

Needed to edit…
This is painful to read, but true beyond reconning. I wish more were this reasonable.
 
You really don't know much about this

I am nothing resembling a medical person by training....

I'm confused.
Are you or are you not sufficiently trained to tell people they are wrong?

But I spent a lot of time volunteering with dying AIDS patients back in the day.

Oh, well in that case Im as qualified as you to talk about the topic of PAS.

Oh yeah, sometimes people are in a horrible position with no hope for improvement or even effective pain relief and no reason to go on suffering.

If this is an argument about bodily autonomy, a person doesnt need a reason to end their life. And it's allegedly their decision alone whether 'hope' is relevant.

I don't recall you responding to something I have said a couple of times.

Did you say it to me? In this thread?
Were you talking to Unknown Soldier?
Post a link to the post for which you expect a response from me specifically.

There were a couple of them you say?
Show me.

If the goal of good parenting is to get your child to heaven and the innocent all go to heaven, then wouldn't abortion be the ideal child rearing method?

Do you seriously think that's a logical argument?

Which is better?

A life on Earth plus going to heaven. (1+1=2)
No life on Earth - just heaven. (0+1=1)

And how do you figure that if something is OK for God to do - end a life - then it's equally OK for someone who is not God?

Theres a huge category error going on here.

...I saw a police officer use capsicum spray and handcuffs on a person.

- therefore its OK for me to do that.

...I'm allowed to paint graffiti on my own front fence.

- therefore I must not care whether vandals spray paint my fence


Graffiti.jpg
 
I've always wished we were more like bonobos than chimps, not that I have anything against Chimps. It's just that the matriarchal bonobos are peace loving, who are never violent except when a male tries to get to attack someone. Instead of using violence, they use sex and affection when they meet up with a different tribe of bonobos.

Well, maybe … or maybe not.
That's interesting. Perhaps all of Frans de Waal's research was done among the captive bonobos at the Emory Primate Research Center ( I think that's what it's called ). It was started in 1930 to study primates. in the books I've written by de Waal, the only aggression he ever mentioned was when a male becomes very aggressive, the dominate female will unite and bite off the male's penis. If and when I have time, I'll have to see if he studied bonobos in the wild. I think he may have to some extent as he did study other primates in the wild. But, he could have missed the more aggressive behavior mentioned in your linked article. Regardless, we primates aren't very peaceful. Sorry we're off topic. I'll stop now.
 
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