The Vilification of Judas Iscariot

[Politesse]

This is all mostly entertainment and passing the time for me.

I never watch videos people post on religion from either side. It is all opinionated comentary on a mythical 2000 year old dead Jew. Comentray that has been running continuously for 2000 years.

Steve baby, that isn't commentary it's Greenwich Village.

 

[TomC]

This is all mostly entertainment and passing the time for me.

I never watch videos people post on religion from either side. It is all opinionated comentary on a mythical 2000 year old dead Jew. Comentray that has been running continuously for 2000 years.

Steve baby, that isn't commentary it's Greenwich Village.

Really excellent theatre and music, though.
I remember the first time I heard the JCSuperstar sound track. I was in 7th grade. My religion teacher, Sister Rose, played it for us.
It was quite a revelation.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

This is all mostly entertainment and passing the time for me.

I never watch videos people post on religion from either side. It is all opinionated comentary on a mythical 2000 year old dead Jew. Comentray that has been running continuously for 2000 years.

Steve baby, that isn't commentary it's Greenwich Village.

Really excellent theatre and music, though.
I remember the first time I heard the JCSuperstar sound track. I was in 7th grade. My religion teacher, Sister Rose, played it for us.
It was quite a revelation.
Tom

A friend and I did a duet version of "Don't Know How to Love Him" and "Could We Start Again" at talent shows when I was young. It's such a weirdly universal show; it seems to mean something different to everyone who watches it but most are able to engage with the central drama of it much better in musical form than could be hoped for from the ancient text. Andrew Lloyd Webber seems like such a doofus when he tries to explain his work, and no one can deny the derivative nature of much of his music, but he's clearly good at fishing out exactly the most critical points of a story and elevating them. He makes things people want to go back and see or listen to again, even if they wouldn't have expected that a Bible story or a thinly veiled anthem to furries or a maudlin French horror novel was going to be the stage adaptation to beat. There's got to be some sort of genius lurking in all that.

 

[steve_bank]

Outside of the forum I have no interest in anything related to religion.

I did watch the live stage production a few years back. Judas stole the show.

 

[Politesse]

Outside of the forum I have no interest in anything related to religion.

Amazing how you managed to become such an expert on it, then. Must have been horrible for you.

 

[steve_bank]

Outside of the forum I have no interest in anything related to religion.

Amazing how you managed to become such an expert on it, then. Must have been horrible for you.

I never isolated myself. I knew Christians an went to their churches and talked with people.

I read the bibl, Koran, Buddhism and others. History of religion. My Koran was given to me by a Muslim I knew. I worked at a company fouded by Iranian immigrants, Muslims. I had conversations with one and we once exchanged books on Islam.

In the 70s there was an ashram of American Sikh converts in my neighborhood. For a feew weeks I got up early and did thier moring rituals and yoga.

One sits on the floor and while touching thumbs to finger tips one recites sa-ta-na-ma.

They took Sikh names, wore native clothes, and men wore beards and had ceremonial daggers.

My very first impression holds, you know facts of relgion but do understand meaning. Maybe why you nevermake substantive answers to questions.

These days I have no interest in religion.

Is your atitude a reflection of a Jesus morality?

 

[Politesse]

Is your atitude a reflection of a Jesus morality?

Yes. I credit Jesus entirely for my love of catchy Broadway revues. Thank you, Jesus.

 

[DBT]

Sinners, pray to Jesus and repent.

 

[Rhea]

So, back on the topic of the Unfair Vilification of Judas Iscariot: Politesse, you have not given a rebuttal to this. I’ve added some more items for full clarity. The vilification in linght of all these items, seems monstrously unfair.

And you are leaving out the salient point that Tom clearly included.

The hypothetical moral rule is that when

1. The victim is God
2. The victim CHOSE to use rape as part of it’s plot
3. The Victim CAUSED to rapist to rape
4. World peace was achieved during the 40 days following the crime
5. The victim fails to report that they chose the rape to happen, chose the rapist, and then made them rape

Then, yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was chosen on purpose to do the thing and then allowed to be psycologically coerced into doing the rape.

Let’s add some more salient detail after I thought about this more:

The hypothetical moral rule is that when:

1. The victim is a god
2. The god/victim has chosen to use rape as a means of bringing world peace
3. The god/victim choses a rapist
4. The god/victim has manipulated the rapist to commit the rape, thereby causing the rape
5. (I’ve concluded that it no longer really matters if the world peace was actually achieved)
6. The god/victim choses to not tell anyone after the rape that the rapist was deliberately chosen and manipulated into raping in order to achieve world peace
7. The rapist spends eternity burning in hell for something he was coerced into doing, while being taunted for three days there by the god who did it to him.

Then yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was targeted, manipulated/coerced and used as a pawn for a god who did not have to scapegoat a mortal to achieve its immortal goals, because it’s a freakin’ god, innit?

In America, “entrapment” is wrong because it is an immoral means of achieving a social goal.

 

[Politesse]

Sinners, pray to Jesus and repent.

 

[TomC]

I think of the Judas story as part of the invented fiction that is found in so many places in the NT. It really doesn't make much sense. If ole JC was viewed as that much of a threat, then surely many of the Romans knew what he looked like. Judas would not have had to identify him. JC was not supposed to have been underground.

This is kinda why this part of the story looks so incoherent as to be non-theist.

If everyone involved were humans, then the story makes sense. Judas sold out Jesus for some bounty money. Of course the disciples would hate him for that.

But if Jesus were God, then the story becomes incoherent. Even after the Resurrection, He doesn't explain why Judas was needed to attain Salvation, apparently. All that would have taken was an offhand comment, during His 40 days before Ascension.
Tom

ETA ~And furthermore, had Judas offed himself in a fit of regret before the Resurrection, Jesus could have dealt with that. Raising dead people was His forte. Why didn't He?~

 

[TomC]

Then yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was targeted, manipulated/coerced and used as a pawn for a god who did not have to scapegoat a mortal to achieve its immortal goals, because it’s a freakin’ god, innit?

While I think rape was a poor choice of example for the Judas thing, there is one example of it in the NT.
Mary.
She committed adultery by making a baby while betrothed to Joseph. She didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with it being God and all.
Tom

 

[ideologyhunter]

It would be really out-there to see the death of Judas (Acts chapter one version) in 3D. Buncha guts, apparently. I hope Mel G. is filming this in his best porn/gore style. (I remember in Passion how the scourging of JC led to just gallons of blood spewed out in a courtyard. Bring the whole family!!)

 

[Politesse]

Then yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was targeted, manipulated/coerced and used as a pawn for a god who did not have to scapegoat a mortal to achieve its immortal goals, because it’s a freakin’ god, innit?

While I think rape was a poor choice of example for the Judas thing, there is one example of it in the NT.
Mary.
She committed adultery by making a baby while betrothed to Joseph. She didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with it being God and all.
Tom

You sound kind of judgemental about that, considering your own argument that saving the world justifies rape and so forth. If your own position is valid, wouldn't it be wrong to villainize God for raping the minor in question, since it had a good outcome?

 

[steve_bank]

Judgemental over the so called biblical morality? You betcha.

The gospel Jesus went around calling people hypocrites for not following Jewish moraluty. You know, like forncation.

 

[Politesse]

Judgemental over the so called biblical morality? You betcha.

The gospel Jesus went around calling people hypocrites for not following Jewish moraluty. You know, like forncation.

It's a good thing he died before Californication was invented, he might not gave taken it well.

 

[TomC]

Then yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was targeted, manipulated/coerced and used as a pawn for a god who did not have to scapegoat a mortal to achieve its immortal goals, because it’s a freakin’ god, innit?

While I think rape was a poor choice of example for the Judas thing, there is one example of it in the NT.
Mary.
She committed adultery by making a baby while betrothed to Joseph. She didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with it being God and all.
Tom

You sound kind of judgemental about that, considering your own argument that saving the world justifies rape and so forth. If your own position is valid, wouldn't it be wrong to villainize God for raping the minor in question, since it had a good outcome?

If you want to keep making up positions and attributing them to me,

I guess I really can't stop you.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't give much care to the New Testament because it is silly after studying the Tanakh. But the Judas thing does make me wonder, why was Judas required to deal with Jesus? Jesus bad enough of an "Hombre" to warrant execution, but no one knows who he is?!

So all the miracles, all the importance, all the anger... and only his pals know who he is.

WTF?!?!

 

[TomC]

Judgemental over the so called biblical morality? You betcha.

The gospel Jesus went around calling people hypocrites for not following Jewish moraluty. You know, like forncation.

It's a good thing he died before Californication was invented, he might not gave taken it well.

Heh.
Just last evening Doug was playing music I don't much care for and that song came on.
I laughed, having mostly forgotten about it.

Was that "the black crows"?
Tom

 

[Rhea]

Then yah, it’s wrong to vilify the rapist who was targeted, manipulated/coerced and used as a pawn for a god who did not have to scapegoat a mortal to achieve its immortal goals, because it’s a freakin’ god, innit?

While I think rape was a poor choice of example for the Judas thing, there is one example of it in the NT.
Mary.
She committed adultery by making a baby while betrothed to Joseph. She didn't have a lot of choice in the matter, what with it being God and all.
Tom

You sound kind of judgemental about that, considering your own argument that saving the world justifies rape and so forth. If your own position is valid, wouldn't it be wrong to villainize God for raping the minor in question, since it had a good outcome?

No, that is not what he said at all.

Not even - at all.

It would be wrong to vilify MARY for having sex, seeing as the god was the one who decided to do it as a means of world-saving, the god who chose her, the god who coerced her, perhaps by making her think it was okay.

Tom’s point is that MARY should not be vilified.

But in BOTH stories, the god is a monster, scapegoating innocent people in order to play games that he could have accomplished just fine without ruining their lives.