Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

[Copernicus]

Netanyahu's "Get Out of Jail Free" prosecution of this war has seriously isolated Israel from most of the world community and shaken the longstanding support from its closest ally, the US. One can tell how bad things are for Israel, because claims that US support for Israel is 'ironclad' are becoming more and more frequent from US politicians. Under normal circumstances, there would be no need for such loud declarations. Within Israel, criticism of Netanyahu has risen to the point that it threatens the unity of the unity government, with Benny Gantz threatening to leave the government over lack of a coherent war strategy.

Israeli minister Gantz presents ultimatum to Bibi on post-Gaza war strategy​

Why it matters: Gantz's speech further destabilized the emergency government that was formed after the Hamas October 7 attack and widened the divides within the war cabinet.

• The speech came a few days after Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant presented his public indictment against Netanyahu and his unwillingness to draft a post-war strategy.

What they're saying: Gantz said in his speech that an extremist minority took over the decision-making "and is taking Israel into a wall."

• He was referring to Netanyahu's political allies and ultranationalist ministers Itamar Ben Gvir and Betzalel Smotruch.
• Gantz accused Netanyahu of being driven by personal and political considerations and not by the country's national security interests.
• He said the cabinet needs to draft a strategy that will prioritize releasing hostages held by Hamas and only afterwards focus on toppling Hamas rule in Gaza.

 

[steve_bank]

Dissent in Israel. It has always been htere, we never see it in ort media,

 

[Shadowy Man]

, with Benny Gantz threatening to leave the government over lack of a coherent war strategy.

let him resign. If he knew of a better war strategy surely he would have shared it already.

 

[Copernicus]

, with Benny Gantz threatening to leave the government over lack of a coherent war strategy.

let him resign. If he knew of a better war strategy surely he would have shared it already.

But his complaint was about the lack of a coherent war strategy, so any war strategy would be better than the current vacuum. Right now, the unstated strategy seems to be to keep Netanyahu in power and out of jail. Gantz gave Netanyahu an ultimatum to publish one, and Netanyahu seems both unable and unwilling to do that. The US government has openly complained about the lack of one. Now people within the Israeli government are demanding one. Gantz would like to see Israel prioritize a return of the remaining hostages first and the destruction of Hamas rule second. The US is now calling for an immediate "ceasefire"--a word that stuck in Biden's throat until now, when he is desperate to try to recover from flagging momentum in his reelection campaign.

 

[Derec]

The strategy for the war is to destroy Hamas as a coherent fighting force, including destroying their infrastructure such as tunnels. After 7 months, much of that has been accomplished although much of Hamas remains of course.

The more difficult problem is what to do after the war. I think I will start a thread about that, so I won't belabor that too much, except to say that this is what Gantz was upset with.

The problem is that Biden has many Arabs/Muslims as well as far leftists in his coalition that he does not want to upset. That's why he made the stupid "line in the sand" about Rafah, even though invading Rafah is 100% necessary to destroy Hamas battalions and infrastructure there.

 

[Shadowy Man]

, with Benny Gantz threatening to leave the government over lack of a coherent war strategy.

let him resign. If he knew of a better war strategy surely he would have shared it already.

But his complaint was about the lack of a coherent war strategy, so any war strategy would be better than the current vacuum.

No. You have not been following this thread closely enough. If he thinks there is a better war strategy why is he not supplying it? I have been well informed here that the lack of any alternatives is proof this is the best strategy.

Gantz would like to see Israel prioritize a return of the remaining hostages first and the destruction of Hamas rule second.

I have also been informed that this strategy will lead to the genocide of the Jewish people so clearly that is not a better alternative.

The US is now calling for an immediate "ceasefire"--a word that stuck in Biden's throat until now, when he is desperate to try to recover from flagging momentum in his reelection campaign.

This too.

 

[Derec]

Dissent in Israel. It has always been htere, we never see it in ort media,

It's a democracy, so there will always be dissent.
I do not get the protesters who demand that Israel agree to a deal with Hamas at any price. That is how they negotiate in the Bizzaro World, to quote Jerry Seinfeld. Hamas is already refusing to release all hostages, and demanding hundreds of terrorists and cessation of all IDF operations even for the few they are willing to release.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The strategy for the war is to destroy Hamas as a coherent fighting force, including destroying their infrastructure such as tunnels. After 7 months, much of that has been accomplished although much of Hamas remains of course.

That isn't a strategy. It is a singular goal, and an impracticable one since it creates more radicals. An actual strategy for the war includes the means to achieve all goals.

The more difficult problem is what to do after the war. ...

That needs to be compatible with the war strategy. One cannot do something logically inconsistent. So the end state and future goal at a high level needs to be in the war strategy.

 

[Derec]

That isn't a strategy. It is a singular goal, and an impracticable one since it creates more radicals. An actual strategy for the war includes the means to achieve all goals.

It is a necessary goal. I do not buy the argument about "creating more radicals". If we took that seriously, we could not fight extremism at all. In the case of Gaza, Hamas is already radicalizing the population from childhood. I do not think this war will significantly increase recruitment since it has already been pretty much maxed out.

That needs to be compatible with the war strategy. One cannot do something logically inconsistent. So the end state and future goal at a high level needs to be in the war strategy.

Any meaningful "day after" strategy must include Hamas no longer being in power. So any war strategy must involve destroying Hamas as an effective fighting force.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

That isn't a strategy. It is a singular goal, and an impracticable one since it creates more radicals. An actual strategy for the war includes the means to achieve all goals.

It is a necessary goal.

Scratch how I worded it. It's not even a goal. It's more a saying that a politician says in a speech, like a platitude. At best, it's an approximate means to a different goal such as mid-term peace and stability.

A single tactic to achieve that goal is not a strategy, nor is that goal the only goal. There are also the hostages and their release.

I do not buy the argument about "creating more radicals". If we took that seriously, we could not fight extremism at all.

Your argument is a false dichotomy: either try to kill everyone or no one. In between, there is an optimization of fair outcomes that would not only be more practical and measurable but also more popular, lending to more worldwide support of achieving the goals.

In the case of Gaza, Hamas is already radicalizing the population from childhood. I do not think this war will significantly increase recruitment since it has already been pretty much maxed out.

There were 40,000 Hamas in a population of 2 million. That isn't maxing out, nor is the radicalization ending merely with Palestinian territories as all the neighbors are becoming more angry at all the slaughterings you support.

That needs to be compatible with the war strategy. One cannot do something logically inconsistent. So the end state and future goal at a high level needs to be in the war strategy.

Any meaningful "day after" strategy must include Hamas no longer being in power. So any war strategy must involve destroying Hamas as an effective fighting force.

Your words mean that there is no strategy just talking about the destruction of Hamas. That is a very politically immature way of imagining the world, one that politicians will communicate, but actual real-world strategies on paper are different.

 

[Copernicus]

, with Benny Gantz threatening to leave the government over lack of a coherent war strategy.

let him resign. If he knew of a better war strategy surely he would have shared it already.

But his complaint was about the lack of a coherent war strategy, so any war strategy would be better than the current vacuum.

No. You have not been following this thread closely enough. If he thinks there is a better war strategy why is he not supplying it? I have been well informed here that the lack of any alternatives is proof this is the best strategy.

Gantz would like to see Israel prioritize a return of the remaining hostages first and the destruction of Hamas rule second.

I have also been informed that this strategy will lead to the genocide of the Jewish people so clearly that is not a better alternative.

The US is now calling for an immediate "ceasefire"--a word that stuck in Biden's throat until now, when he is desperate to try to recover from flagging momentum in his reelection campaign.

This too.

I will assume that you are trying to be facetious here, unless you correct that impression. Gantz is just distancing himself from Netanyahu for political reasons, when he never should have been that close to begin with. The lack of a coherent strategy for winning the war has been apparent for some time. The fantasy solution to this farce of a reality show is to vote all of the Palestinians off the island. Some of the more extreme members of the government have tried to propose something like that by moving the entire population of Gaza into Egypt so that real estate developers like Jared Kushner can build condos there.

 

[steve_bank]

There is opposition to the settlements in Israel, but we rarely hear it in our media. We usually hear conservative Israeli - Netanyahu shills.

A takeaway from the report is that publicly Israelis are questioning the long running policies that led to the war today.

As to Israel being a democracy Netanyahu and the conservatives have been trying for years to eliminate judicial review of laws passed by the legislature. It would be like Trump and conservatives in congress getting rid of oversight by the Supreme Court.

Israel has never lived up to negotiated deals for the creation of a Palestinian state. A recognized Palestinian state would mean legal status to maek international clams against Israel.

 

[ZiprHead]

I don't know what you mean by "Those," but let's hear it. I bet it's pretty much still squibs, if not in form, then in function.

The missiles that hit those four men.
The question is, how does the twit cited by Zipr know that they were "civilians"?

Don't you think if they were Hamas they would be carrying weapons?

No, because ditch the weapon and pretend to be a civilian is standard practice.

There's no one around them. Why would they feel the need to ditch the weapons?

 

[Tigers!]

The strategy for the war is to destroy Hamas as a coherent fighting force, including destroying their infrastructure such as tunnels. After 7 months, much of that has been accomplished although much of Hamas remains of course.

That isn't a strategy. It is a singular goal, and an impracticable one since it creates more radicals. An actual strategy for the war includes the means to achieve all goals.

The Allies strategy in WW2 was to destroy the ability of Germany and Japan to wage war. IIRC it worked rather well.
Churchiull rationale to continue fighting Hitler
I don't recall the creation of more Nazis or Japan warriors to ever be considered a reason not to wage WW2.
Granted the actual ways and means varied due to time and circumstance.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And what incident are you referring to?

I recall some claims of strikes on aid, some of which is clearly faked. I do not recall any convoy being hit car by car.

It was reported in a major news event last month that seriously damaged the already tense relationship between the US and Israeli governments. It was not "clearly faked". I can't believe that you had trouble recalling it. Netanyahu said he was sorry about it.

Chef Jose Andres says Israel targeted his aid workers 'systematically, car by car'​

Well, they are no longer including the image that clearly revealed their deception. Even those images, though--that hole in the roof isn't as obviously wrong as the view from the other side but it's still pretty difficult for anything not heading straight down.

This is your response? It is incoherent without some kind of context to identify the "they" you are talking about. Netanyahu admitted that Israel attacked the convoy. They targeted three cars in succession. If you have some update from a subsequent news story, please back up your response with a link.

Israel has unfortunately adopted a policy of apologizing for acts which would be wrong before determining if they even happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

you want to believe that Israel's targeting is indiscriminate

No, I do not want to believe that. I look at evidence.

Then get some decent glasses.

If the targeting were indiscriminate the probability a civilian was killed would be about the same as a probability a combatant was killed. By the last numbers I've seen there's about a 40x difference in the odds.

but the fact that they hit combatants a very disproportionate amount of the time says it's not.

They CLAIM to do so, but even there it is a minority of the time.

Saying so doesn't make it so. We are still left with 12,000 combatants vs a supposed 34,000 dead. Turns out the Ministry of Health data wasn't very good after all: (Note: You will need to be logged into shitter to follow the thread to get the evidence):

Thus one's first assumption in a case like this is that these guys were observed shooting.

That is a faith-based assumption.

No. It's based on what goes on over there. Assume an unknown fits existing patterns.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/18/1252324720/american-doctor-gaza-israel-hospital-interview

A U.S. doctor in Gaza wants President Biden to know 'we are not safe'

Dr. Adam Hamawy, a U.S. doctor and former U.S. Army combat surgeon who is currently in Gaza, says he has "never in my career witnessed the level of atrocities and targeting of my medical colleagues as I have in Gaza."

Hamawy told NPR's Danielle Kurtzleben that he and his colleagues were supposed to depart from Gaza earlier this week but were prevented from leaving. "We were told that our safe corridor had not been cleared, and that we were not supposed to leave the compound. If we did, it would be at our own risk, and we would be legitimate targets" for Israel's military.

...

Hamawy told Kurtzleben that the situation in Gaza is unlike the other conflicts he's been involved in, because he's treating primarily civilians, rather than combatants. "I'm seeing mostly children, many women, many elderly — people who have nothing to do with this war at all. And I see very, very few people of fighting age."

The doctor who saved Sen. Tammy Duckworth in Iraq is trapped in Gaza. Now she's trying to save him.

Adam Hamawy, from Princeton, N.J., is among a team of doctors from the Palestinian American Medical Association that was blocked from leaving Gaza on Monday.

www.nbcnews.com

And we have evidence that the problem is not Hamas rather than Israel??

That is ridiculous. The doctor is saying what the problem is.

No. He's saying the safe corridor has not been cleared. That doesn't say why it hasn't been cleared--you are assuming the problem is with Israel. And that's information from Hamas in the first place, thus not trustworthy.

And when you're in Gaza you had better say what Hamas wants you to say.

That's possible. Get him out and ask him.

Look at the stories reporters tell of having to cover up Hamas actions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The UN had been reporting the number of dead that Hamas claimed. They switched to reporting what the Ministry of Health listed, instead. As you say, this is not half. It is, however, approximately how many combatants Israel claims to have killed. If we figure the Hamas data is total dead an the ministry data is mostly civilian dead everything's consistent. By Occam's razor this would be the most sensible interpretation.

I don't think you are far off here except for your assumption of who is a combatant who is not. For example, Netanyahu most recently has said that there were 14,000 Hamas and other fighters killed plus "probably around" (a very very vague estimate by him) 16,000 civilians killed. This is him on the defense, after earlier he said that 1.1 to 1.5 was the ratio and even earlier after Israel had said the ratio was 1 to 2. So we can take that 16,000 figure to be very loose and an underestimate. If it were 2 to 1, the total would be 42,000 which is above 35,000. If it were 1.5 to 1, it'd be 35,000. If it were his least estimate so far of 16K, the total would be 30,000, which is HIGHER than the 25K of identified persons in the counts. Israel's ranges from least to highest are inclusive of the 35,000 figure but ARE NOT inclusive of the 25K figure. This again is because it is only identified persons, not all the bodies observed.

The point is the numbers line up if you assume ministry of health counts bodies and reports civilian dead, Hamas reports total dead and Israel has a reasonably accurate toll of dead combatants. Ignore what Netanyahu is saying about ratios, he's a politician, expect everything to be a bit slanted. And note that it's a shifting target, you need numbers from the same time.

How do you know it's "reasonably accurate"? How do you know it isn't just propaganda?

I'm going on Israel's claims of combatant kills vs the MoH claims of dead that Israel had been going along with. I figured that if both sides said the same number it probably was reasonably accurate, but it turns out there's a lot of bogus entries in the MoH data and Netanyahu's numbers are better than I thought they were.

 

[lpetrich]

Over at X/Twitter I've found several threads with lots and lots of video of IDF soldiers being destructive and disrespectful -- video that those soldiers themselves have posted online.

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: " Exclusive on Israeli war crimes published on soldiers' social media accounts Sergant Simha Lubling 890th battalion: “You have to much china stuff at your kitchen. I was happy to help you residents of Khan Younes (as much as I had time to). GO SUE ME AT THE HAGUE BASTARDS” -> (vid link)" / X

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "Khan Younis | Israeli soldiers from the 66th battalion film the mosque with a drone, observing that it is completely empty with nothing in it, having already been destroyed. They proceed to blow it up, reducing it to dust -> (vid link)" / X

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: "Gaza | Intent to Genocide “We are in a university in Gaza. I think they're closed… How beautiful..Another angle of the ruins..We're starting a new semester.. It’ll start…Never..” Israeli master sergeant Udi Ben Tora from the now blown-up Azhar University (1/3) (vid link)" / X

Younis Tirawi | يونس on X: " Thread on new disturbing findings from Israeli soldiers in Gaza during the ongoing war | 1. Israeli soldiers from the 401 Armored Brigade celebrating after blowing up a home in Gaza ->> (vid link)" / X

Sarah Wilkinson on X: "New footage reveals the unthinkable israeli murder of immovable patients in the Indonesian Hospital in north Gaza @SuppressedNws (vid link)" / X

Pelham on X: "The IDF posts it’s own videos of targeting tents in Rafah… this is the most evil regime that the world has ever witnessed.. (vid link)" / X

Ramy Abdu| رامي عبده on X: "Jana Zuhair Madi, 13 years old, was killed by an Israeli sniper in cold blood. #GazaGenocide (vid link)" / X

Murtaza Hussain on X: "I'm surprised officers in the IDF haven't disciplined their soldiers for engaging in this behavior for months and broadcasting it if only for the reason that it is harming their reputation. It suggests poor discipline and low professional standards." / X
(about a picture of some male IDF soldiers wearing Gazan women's clothing)

 

[lpetrich]

Ussama Makdisi on X: "1. The @guardian points out today that "Israel has also destroyed every university in Gaza, in addition to killing at least 5,479 students, 261 teachers and 95 university professors, according to the UN, which has condemned Israel’s actions as “scholasticide”."
2. And yet there are still philozionist academics, administrators, and of course venal politicians, in deep denial about what is happening. Or they think—cynically or not--that the real issue is not U.S. funded genocide but the "scourge" of Palestinian solidarity protestors on campuses from all faiths protesting genocide." / X

Tali {}{} on X: " Meet Sergant Sharon Ohana, Combat Engineering corps, who also happens to be a family lawyer.
All genocide calls & war crimes. Here he is in Gaza city smashing trucks for fun & bragging about it on facebook
“We will take care of the trucks.. sons of whor*s (1/10) h/t @ytirawi (vid link)" / X

Muhammad Shehada on X: "Israel lies pathologically! ..." / X

Israel lies pathologically!
Aof dozens of conclusively debunked Israeli gov lies since Oct 7, off the top of my head

1- The IDF blatantly claimed this underground WATER TANK was a "Hamas tunnel" their ground troops discovered at the Qatari hospital in Gaza on Nov 5 2023

Mainstream media put it in headlines immediately despite experts challenging this lie with detailed maps of the room

In February, local journalists were finally able to access the area & debunk the lie

The IDF knew exactly what this shaft was back in Nov b/c their troops inspected it on the ground, but they lied deliberately to pave the way for raiding, besieging, bombing, & destroying almost every single hospital in Gaza

Jewish Voice for Peace on X: "Palestinians uncovered a second mass grave in Gaza with over 300 bodies, the majority Palestinian children and the elderly. The Israeli military killed and discarded them during its assault on the Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis.
This is a pattern. This is what a well-funded (vid link)" / X

Pelham on X: "BREAKING
Palestinian civil defense has discovered hundreds of bodies buried by the IDF in a mass grave outside the Nasser Hospital…
At least 400 bodies have been found with many being children with their hands bound behind their backs…
THIS IS A GENOCIDE… (vid link)" / X

Tameem | تميم on X: "AP wrote a riddle for you because it can’t say “Israel killed a Palestinian mother” in the headline - you need to make your own conclusion instead (pic link)" / X

Jehad Abusalim جهاد أبو سليم on X: "I am truly disgusted.
Reports have emerged today from Gaza about the discovery of a mass grave at Nasser Hospital, where civilians—including doctors, nurses, women, men, and children—were mercilessly killed in cold blood. On the same day, the American ruling class chose to prioritize condemning a group of students exercising their constitutional right to express their political views through protest. Meanwhile, the slaughter continues in Gaza: daily killings of innocent civilians, destruction of entire neighborhoods, and the constant discovery of new massacres or crimes every single day, each surpassing the previous one in brutality and horror." / X

Evan Hill on X: "A Post investigation ..." / X

A Post investigation has found that Israeli vehicles were present in the area and that Israeli weapons likely caused the visible damage in the killing of 6-year-old Hind Rajab and eight others in Gaza City on January 29.

Before she was killed, Rajab called the Palestinian Red Crescent to say Israeli tanks were approaching, and the ambulance driven by two Red Crescent paramedics who were killed while trying to rescue her bore a 300mm hole and other damage consistent with a tank round.

Elad Goren, head of the Coordination and Liaison Administration at COGAT, an arm of the Israeli Defense Ministry that oversees the Palestinian territories, told The Post that the agency “coordinated everything … including the ambulance that wanted to go and find Hind." The IDF denied that any coordination had taken place and claimed that its forces were not in the area, despite satellite imagery showing what appear to be Merkava tanks 300m away at the time.

(gift link): https:// wapo.st/4aCoCqA

Tariq Kenney-Shawa on X: "Citing conversations with Israeli military officials, @BarakRavid says, “The orders from the commanders on the ground [in Gaza] are 'shoot every man of fighting age.'"
This is a serious allegation to make. So let’s take a look at some of the evidence that backs it up:" / X

Tariq Kenney-Shawa on X: "Yesterday, Al Jazeera shared footage of Israeli forces shooting Palestinian civilians as they tried to reach air dropped aid. The video shows one man being shot & injured only to be shot again & again as he desperately tried to crawl away. They left his body to be eaten by dogs. (vid link)" / X

That does seem to fit. It even fits the IDF killing three Hamas hostages who went to them. "Kill them all. HaShem will know his own," it seems.