How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[ZiprHead]

Putin never wanted to work with the west unless they wanted to roll over and concede whatever he wanted,

Everything you say is patently false and opposite is true.

You already admitted it was true when you said this:

No, what you excrete here at nauseam is BS and lies.

"Yep, take a good deal or we fuck you up, which you more than deserved 10 times over."

Yes, that was the offer. Russia cannot have this shit on its border.

You caused to have this shit on your border. You tried to stop one and got two others. How's that plan working out for you?

Nuland vehemently disagrees with taking credit from her.

Cite?

Yah, I don't expect any proof to be coming from this one.

 

[Bronzeage]

Correction. The west did roll over and concede whatever he wanted up until February 2022 when they finally grew some balls and pushed back.

It's hard to not roll over after you peed yourself anticipating NATO base in Sevastopol.
I mean surprise and then realization that Crimea was never a realistic goal for NATO.

Sevastopol is in Crimea, Ukraine. Ukraine was never in Nato.

Crimea is Russia. And NATO generals did pee their pants in 2014 over prospect of having a base there.

Ukraine has demonstrated that a naval base at Sevastopol cannot be defended, so it's of little use to any navy.

Beyond that, the only use NATO would have for Sevastopol would be to counter the Russian Black Sea Fleet. The Black Sea Fleet no longer exists, so there's no reason to spend all the money to drag Russian ships away from the pier.

 

[steve_bank]

Anyone else here see he utter lunacy of the war, or it just me?

 

[Elixir]

Anyone else here see he utter lunacy of the war

Sure, it appears bonkers. But it makes perfect sense compared to Trump’s Iranian “Not Epstein” adventure.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Anyone else here see he utter lunacy of the war, or it just me?

I don’t know. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine. Ukraine wants to be free. I think it’s lunacy for Russia to think that Ukraine would just give up without a fight!

 

[robnisch]

Does Putin have a plan for keeping any territory he wins?
The Resistants' during WWII drove the Nazis crazy.
How many Ukrainians have guns?

 

[barbos]

Ukraine has demonstrated that a naval base at Sevastopol cannot be defended

Says the guy who's bases in ME were evacuated.
and no, Ukraine have not shown that. The west have shown that. Without West Ukraine would have fallen in couple of months.

 

[barbos]

Putin never wanted to work with the west unless they wanted to roll over and concede whatever he wanted,

Everything you say is patently false and opposite is true.

You already admitted it was true when you said this:

No, what you excrete here at nauseam is BS and lies.

"Yep, take a good deal or we fuck you up, which you more than deserved 10 times over."

Yes, that was the offer. Russia cannot have this shit on its border.

You caused to have this shit on your border. You tried to stop one and got two others. How's that plan working out for you?

Nuland vehemently disagrees with taking credit from her.

Cite?

Her Phone call to one pg her "students"

 

[Bronzeage]

Does Putin have a plan for keeping any territory he wins?
The Resistants' during WWII drove the Nazis crazy.
How many Ukrainians have guns?

Russia's real concern is not Ukrainians with guns, but with drones.

Whatever plans Putin had before the invasion, none of them have any utility. All plans depended on the Ukrainian government collapsing and a puppet government put in place. Historically, WWII resistance fighters accomplished very little. The groups were small and poorly trained and armed. It was only after D-Day that French Resistance had any affect on the actual fighting by destroying telephone lines and railroads.

What was much more effective was soft resistance, such as French truck engines which seized up after a couple thousand miles of use and artillery shells which didn't leave the barrel, or explode when it did.

 

[Bronzeage]

Ukraine has demonstrated that a naval base at Sevastopol cannot be defended

Says the guy who's bases in ME were evacuated.
and no, Ukraine have not shown that. The west have shown that. Without West Ukraine would have fallen in couple of months.

Are you the guy who told Putin that the West wouldn't come to Ukraine's aid? That should have been an easy call. In hindsight, it looks pretty stupid. Now Russia has to buy missiles from North Korea and is still going to lose.

Now Russia can't use Sevastopol and soon will have to give up Novorossiysk.

 

[Copernicus]

Anyone else here see he utter lunacy of the war, or it just me?

I don’t know. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine. Ukraine wants to be free. I think it’s lunacy for Russia to think that Ukraine would just give up without a fight!

Put it in historical context. The Russian Empire occupied Ukraine except for the western part, which was "Galicia" under the Habsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire. Germany took the eastern part of Poland, but Russia's occupation extended over much of Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) including Belarus. In WWI, the tsarist advance eastward intended to extend into Germany, and that was what the Soviet Empire ended up keeping as a satellite state, including all of Polish territory. The West barely managed to dislodge Russian occupiers from Austria, which remains outside of NATO to this day. It remains "permanently neutral".

During the WWI era, the tsarist expansion treated Ukrainians (aka Malorussians or "Little Russians") as essentially part of Russia. Ukraine was fully incorporated into the Soviet Union, a repurposed "Russian Empire". At the end of WWI, Germany had effectively won the Eastern front and lost the Western Front. After WWII, Soviet Russia had basically won back the former territory of the Russian Empire and expanded it further to the West. However, the Eastern Bloc consisted of nation-states that, by international agreement, were treated as sovereign. Nevertheless, as rebellions post-WWII showed, they were the prevailing occupying power until Gorbachev came along and the Soviet Empire collapsed.

The new Putin regime is an irredentist movement that is still pushing the old Russian imperial view that Ukraine is essentially "Little Russia". Putin promotes the idea that Russians, Belarussians, and Ukrainians are all "one people"--part of the same spiritual nation. These are Orthodox Christian territories that largely speak languages classified as Eastern Slavic. It is the same propagandist crap that the tsarist regime spread to motivate its westward expansion into non-Russian territories. Historically, the Muscovite state regarded itself as the "Third Rome" after the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century. The name "tsar" comes from the early Rus' name for Constantinople--"Tsargrad" (literally "Caesar City"). The idea was that the Tsar was the protector and ruler of the old Rus' territories, which included essentially the eastern portion of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

When barbos calls the western part of Ukraine "Galicia", he is referring to the partitioned part of Ruthenian lands that had been under Habsburg and German occupation. Putin is very much trying to bring back the Soviet/Russian Empire, which was historically oriented towards expansion into German-speaking territories. Barbos is essentially a propagandist for that expansion into at least Eastern Ukraine. Belarus has been all but incorporated now. When Lukashenko leaves, another Russian-controlled quisling will likely be installed in his place. Belarus could even be incorporated into the Russian Federation, just as parts of Ukrainian territory have already been incorporated.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine is doing great!

 

[barbos]

Anyone else here see he utter lunacy of the war, or it just me?

I don’t know. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine. Ukraine wants to be free. I think it’s lunacy for Russia to think that Ukraine would just give up without a fight!

Put it in historical context. The Russian Empire occupied Ukraine except for the western part, which was "Galicia" under the Habsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire. Germany took the eastern part of Poland, but Russia's occupation extended over much of Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) including Belarus. In WWI, the tsarist advance eastward intended to extend into Germany, and that was what the Soviet Empire ended up keeping as a satellite state, including all of Polish territory. The West barely managed to dislodge Russian occupiers from Austria, which remains outside of NATO to this day. It remains "permanently neutral".

During the WWI era, the tsarist expansion treated Ukrainians (aka Malorussians or "Little Russians") as essentially part of Russia. Ukraine was fully incorporated into the Soviet Union, a repurposed "Russian Empire". At the end of WWI, Germany had effectively won the Eastern front and lost the Western Front. After WWII, Soviet Russia had basically won back the former territory of the Russian Empire and expanded it further to the West. However, the Eastern Bloc consisted of nation-states that, by international agreement, were treated as sovereign. Nevertheless, as rebellions post-WWII showed, they were the prevailing occupying power until Gorbachev came along and the Soviet Empire collapsed.

The new Putin regime is an irredentist movement that is still pushing the old Russian imperial view that Ukraine is essentially "Little Russia". Putin promotes the idea that Russians, Belarussians, and Ukrainians are all "one people"--part of the same spiritual nation. These are Orthodox Christian territories that largely speak languages classified as Eastern Slavic. It is the same propagandist crap that the tsarist regime spread to motivate its westward expansion into non-Russian territories. Historically, the Muscovite state regarded itself as the "Third Rome" after the fall of Constantinople in the 15th century. The name "tsar" comes from the early Rus' name for Constantinople--"Tsargrad" (literally "Caesar City"). The idea was that the Tsar was the protector and ruler of the old Rus' territories, which included essentially the eastern portion of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

When barbos calls the western part of Ukraine "Galicia", he is referring to the partitioned part of Ruthenian lands that had been under Habsburg and German occupation. Putin is very much trying to bring back the Soviet/Russian Empire, which was historically oriented towards expansion into German-speaking territories. Barbos is essentially a propagandist for that expansion into at least Eastern Ukraine. Belarus has been all but incorporated now. When Lukashenko leaves, another Russian-controlled quisling will likely be installed in his place. Belarus could even be incorporated into the Russian Federation, just as parts of Ukrainian territory have already been incorporated.

What a load of crap.
Most of modern Ukraine has always been Russia (Except short term occupation by Poland and .... Sweden) Smaller part was most of the time occupied by Poland, that's true, but it does not make it Poland. Poles were trying to occupy whole Russia and were pretty close to achieving that through different kind of machinations

 

[bilby]

Most of modern Ukraine has always been Russia

In exactly the same way that most of the modern USA has always been Britain.

Obviously "always" means "since the invasion long ago which we don't care about because indigenous peoples don't count".

And "most" implies that the equally nonsensical Spanish claim can be disregarded, because Britain is noble, powerful, honest, kind, just, loveable, and deeply misunderstood; and every other claimant is none of these things.

Russia's attempt to "re"take Ukraine by force is as utterly futile as would be an attempt by Britain to "re"take the USA by force. Or indeed, an attempt by Britain to "re"take the Republic of Ireland by force.

The capability of the respective armies is a sideshow; If Russia had taken Kyiv in a few days, and Zelenskyy had fled as planned and expected, Ukraine would have become a shitty nightmare for the occupying forces, with no prospect of ever producing a return on the investment of the costs of invading. Every harvest would be sabotaged; Every Russian administrator or policeman would live in constant fear; Every resource would cost far more in both lives and money to acquire.

It is not certain (though it seems increasingly likely) that it is impossible for Russia to seize Ukraine. But it is certain that any such seizure would be futile.

 

[barbos]

Obviously "always" means "since the invasion long ago which we don't care about because indigenous peoples don't count".

Don't equate your stupid history with Russian one.
"Ukrainians" are not indigenous people. They literally are indistinguishable from russians.

 

[barbos]

Every harvest would be sabotaged; Every Russian administrator or policeman would live in constant fear;

You don't know shit about anything if you think that.

 

[barbos]

Things are not good in Kiev:

 

[bilby]

Obviously "always" means "since the invasion long ago which we don't care about because indigenous peoples don't count".

Don't equate your stupid history with Russian one.
"Ukrainians" are not indigenous people. They literally are indistinguishable from russians.

Anglo-Americans aren't indiginous peopke either. They are literally indestinguishable from Britons (and Irishmen).